The BaitShop Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > FireArms, et cetera > Shotguns, Shotgun Ammunition and Shotshell Reloading
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - SELF DEFENSE AND SHOTGUNS
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

This site is completely supported by donations; there are no corporate sponsors. We would be honoured if you would consider a small donation, to be used exclusively for forum expenses.



Thank you, from the BaitShop Boyz!

Topic ClosedSELF DEFENSE AND SHOTGUNS

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Topic: SELF DEFENSE AND SHOTGUNS
    Posted: 28 July 2003 at 06:52

Self Defense And Shotguns

 

Anybody here remember the opening scene in the old Gunsmoke TV series?

 

Two men in the middle of the street.  One draws a handgun and fires a split second before the second.  First to shoot misses.  Second to shoot hits.

  

Nuff said.

 

Fast is good.  Accurate is better.  Some, few, are both fast and accurate.

 

Quick asides:

 

1) As I understand it, in that Gunsmoke scene, the man who draws and shoots first is a holster maker.  Did a lot of work for the movies.  Especially double gun rigs.  Sorry, but I can't remember his name right now.

 

2) From what I read, gun fight's, like the one described, didn't take place all that often.  Being shot from cover was far more likely.  Either way, if you shoot at someone, with the intention of hitting them, and, if you don't intend to hit them, a question arises as to the wisdom of shooting at them in the first place, but, more importantly, if you do shoot, and then miss, you might not get a second chance to shoot no matter how fast you are.  Never underestimate your opponent. 

 

3) I got nothing against shotguns.  As of today, I've owned 19 of 'em.  One thing I've learned, at close range, even a 12 gauge shotgun with an 18 1/2 inch barrel, sawed off, with no choke whatsoever, does not fire as large a pattern at 6 feet as one might think.  You do better, but, again, not as big a pattern as one might think, at 21 feet, so, if you are going to use a shotgun for self defense, please take it out and pattern it at the various ranges at which you can envision using it.  There are a lot of misconceptions about shotguns out there.  Shooting patterns brings reality back into the picture.  So do penetration tests. 

 

4) Personally, for self defense, depending on the specific situation, I like either 00 Buck or number 4 shot.  I test my shotgun loads by tacking up a double sheet of newspaper with a center aiming point marked on it.  Then I try to duplicate the types of shots, from a variety of body positions and ranges, that I can envision having to make.  At the end of the day, I gather up all those double sheets and start doing the real work necessary to understand how well I did.  First, I want to know how many shots were on target.  If I missed, where was the center of my pattern?  Second, how many pellets did I get into my target area?  A single pellet might kill a human being but you will, typically, do better by getting more than one pellet into an opponent.  I also shoot my shotgun loads into wood so as to get some idea of how well different pellets and loads penetrate.  There are better replications for penetration testing but this one works OK for my needs.

 

5).  There are no magic guns or bullets.  Pointing a gun at someone may or may not stop an attack.  Getting a projectile, pellet or bullet, into someone may or may not stop an attack.  Think of it this way, what if your attacker is larger, stronger, faster and more skilled, as well as more determined, than you are?  You have to, somehow, figure out a way to either incapacitate or kill such an opponent to, for sure, stop their attack.  The only alternative, in this type of situation, is to become a victim.  Sometimes, sadly, you can't run or otherwise avoid attack.  Bad stuff does happen.  A very experienced law enforcement pal, who is a tactical training officer, once told me:  The only reason more good people are not killed or injured is that the bad people, and I've seen some evil ones, have not found them yet.

 

6) Earlier, I mentioned range and cited two in particular:  6 feet and 21 feet.  As I understand it,  FBI statistics say that something like 40 percent of shooting incidents, gun muzzle to body, occur from within 6 feet.  Another 40 percent occur from between 6 and 21 feet.  That means 80 percent occur within 21 feet or less.  So, if you are unlucky enough to be in a typical shooting situation, you need to know what both you, your gun and your ammunition can do at that sort of range.  I may not have these ranges or percentages exactly correct, but, as I recall, they are reasonably close, for our discussion purposes, and offer up some very serious food for thought. 

 

7) Additionally, statistics, again from the FBI, as I understand them, on shooting incidents, tell us that we are more likely, today, to be attacked by multiple attackers than by a single attacker.  This information needs to be factored into your self defense thinking.  The old adage:  Shoot till you hear it click, to me, is now outdated.  Instead, I'd say, use a "stopper" (to me that means a gun, cartridge and bullet/pellet combination that you can shoot accurately and will dependably, as best you can know through both reading, Evan Marshall provides some excellent information, and personal testing, incapacitate or kill an attacker with as few shots as possible:  Ideally, one) to take down the attacker you can see, then, once you are sure that attacker no longer poses an immediate threat to you, check for additional attackers before you shoot your gun empty.  If you have time, reload.  Or do what some call a New York reload, go to a second fully loaded gun.  Even with magazine loaded guns, the New York reload is usually, depending on where your second gun is, quicker.

 

8) Also, be aware that self protection vests are, these days, not hard to find or buy.  If you shoot an attacker with a center mass shot that does not put them down, they may be wearing a vest and your next shot should be directed to the head, hips or upper legs. 

 

9) With the prevalence of drugs these days, especially stimulants, an under the influence attacker can be very difficult to put down.  A 29 grain 22 short lead round nose bullet, for example, will do the trick if you can get one into your attacker's central nervous system (your best bets are to shoot for an eye cavity or ear hole), but, when under attack, most folks tend to shoot for whatever looks biggest, and also shoot less accurately than they typically do at the range during practice sessions, so this is when the larger calibers and bullets, up to a point, including shotguns, that you can shoot accurately, will do you the most good.  And, maybe, cause you the most trouble.  Bullets, we are not talking shotguns now, are unpredictable.  If you shoot a human attacker with a bullet, that bullet may well go clear through them and, unintended, hit someone else.  Perhaps a loved one.  That's why I, personally, prefer bullets, such as, for example, hollow points, or pellets, back to shotguns now, that are less likely to result in a through and through shot.  A rifle, of most any center fire caliber, presents the same potential problem.  Sometimes we can over think things.  But, prior planning, sometimes, will help us to avoid those unintended consequences that can, sadly, haunt us for the rest of our life.

 

Well, I see I've gotten carried away again and wrote much more than I intended.  This is a subject that I'm interested in so if you folks would like me to write more about it, please let me know.  I have written one commentary, called FIGHTING CAN HURT YOU, that has been pretty well received, and I'll post it here, or where ever else you folks think is appropriate.  Maybe, if you want to read it, I'll post it over in the Hunting Stories section where I'm posting most all of my other stories and commentaries  

 

One of the realities of life is that law enforcement, in my experience, can't be everywhere and, as a result, we sometimes have to take responsibility for our own self defense.

 

Remember this, if nothing else from what you have read here:  When a determined attack starts, really starts, no turning back, you either have do something to defend yourself or become a victim, period.  In my world "do over's" and "wait 'till I'm ready" scenarios are about as rare as chickens with lips.  So, think through your self defense needs, prepare accordingly and then know that whatever you choose to do:

1) You will have to defend your actions, or lack thereof, to yourself, for sure, others, probably, and, maybe, law enforcement as well as some sort of judicial review process or trial.

2) You will be second guessed.

3) You will have to live the rest of your life with the results of what you did or did not choose to do.

 

I strongly suggest that those seriously interested in this subject read what Evan Marshall, and Dr Fackler, his chief critic, have to say about what happens when a projectile hits a human body.  Marshall focuses on handgun bullets.  Fackler addresses bullets fired from both long and short guns as well as shotgun pellets.  Both are available for review via the internet.  This information will serve you well as you think through your self defense plans. 

 

CJ

 

Back to Top
norse View Drop Down
.22 LongRifle
.22 LongRifle
Avatar

Joined: 14 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 16
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2003 at 21:26
Well CJ since you already know me well enough, you know that I think the shotgun is the ultimate defence weapon. I have tried a number of different "makes of shells" such as Rem. Federal, Winchester...etc.
I always shot at about 20ft with my Rem 870 with modified choke. You are right about the size of the pattern, but the average size of a hallway in a home is only 36-38 inches, about 78% of that space will be filled by #6 shot. And given the average width of a man that leaves about 10% of his central mass that would not be hit at this range. With obv. devestating results.
And as you stated, with my children in the house, I tend to stay away from "single projectiles" as well as buckshot. Just too much penetration for my homes set up.
I now own a dbl barrel sxs, the bounty hunter II by Baikal. I love this gun for home protection. With one barrel IC and the other Modified, nothing will get by me. Just as you stated, now you are more likely to encounter multiple attackers. Havent tested the pattern on this one yet but will let you know.

And no you were not getting carried away. Just passionate about what you know and believe in, and that is what people, including myself find so insightful.
You always stick to what you believe in, but are always willing to learn from other people also. Which is unfort. a rarity these days. I for one have missed your writings and knowledge the past few months.
Glad to see you in print again.
The Girls will be glad to write to you again.
Esp. Brandie now that she is hunting, has all kinds of stories to tell you.

Scott and the Ladies
Back to Top
.45 COLT View Drop Down
.22 LongRifle
.22 LongRifle


Joined: 11 June 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 47
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2003 at 05:29

Well written, CJ. The first lesson in any course on combat shotgunning should be what a shotgun WON'T do. It won't take out a crowd with a single shot, although it might intimidate a crowd without any shots being fired. The idea behind a load of buck is multiple hits on a single target, not single hits on multiple targets, popular opinion notwithstanding. It is also not a long range weapon. Patterning a load of buck at 25 yards is quite a revelation.

For home defense I have an 870 in the area of each door, loaded with 000 buck. My "bedroom 870" is loaded with #6's in the summer, #2's in the winter, to minimize wall penetration but heavy enough to spoil somebody's day. The small shot is loaded with a "spreader", hopefully to compensate for poor light and possible disorientation at being woke up rather suddenly. That probably won't happen because of the animals I have around my homstead as a warning system, but a possibility.

I have been playing with 0000 buck (.375"), but haven't really settled on a load yet. 000 is probably heavy enough. The 0000 doesn't fit the shell quite to my liking. Yet. Maybe a different combination of wads will help.

DC

Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, sixty rounds powder and ball, and be ready to march at a minute's warning.
Back to Top
Kingpin View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar
aka Old IronSides

Joined: 01 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11716
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2003 at 10:47
Some time ago, I read about a Malay load. It consisted of 00 buck and the buffer was #6 shot. The theory sounded great so I loaded some. It worked like a champ, but I never got to use it for its intended purpose. I still have a few of them lying around somewnere. My shotgun for home defense (870 Rem, is there any other kind?) is loaded with #9 skeet loads. I feel in a close uo situation that it is sufficient for the job reguardless of what the booger is wearing, short of body armor and it will still knock him on his ass in theory. I settled on #9 shot because it has 1 1/2 oz of shot. What weighs more, 1 1/2 oz of #9's or 1 1/2 oz of OO buck? At the ranges we're talking about, it would be just like shooting a slug. The 9's won't totally destroy drywall unless fired at a right angle, the 00's will travel through three walls before it even thinks it's tired. That is, unless, of course, you have a house as big as Donald Trump or Bill Gates. Then you could afford a tank and shotguns wouldn't even be a consideration. LOL..........Kingpin
There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Back to Top
NH_Hunter View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar
aka The Kid

Joined: 13 June 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3508
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2003 at 13:08

If you had a house like Donald Trump's and Bill Gates, then you could just buy an african army armed with ak's and they will do all the shooting for you!

NH_Hunter

Leverguns make me smile
Proud Left Handed Shooter
Back to Top
Kingpin View Drop Down
.416 Rigby
.416 Rigby
Avatar
aka Old IronSides

Joined: 01 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11716
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2003 at 16:37
LOL NH, I wouldn't buy an African army or an AK. After seeing the events on TV about the revolution, I am sure that a house would be in great danger from the spray and pray method exhibited...........Kingpin
There are times when a normal man must, spit in his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Back to Top
Deputy Al View Drop Down
.22 LongRifle
.22 LongRifle


Joined: 27 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 54
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 August 2003 at 04:16

Kingpin et al--

My house gun is the 870 with skeet loads (#9 AA's).  You are quite correct about room-to-room distances and the shot cloud's effect on animated targets--in this case, shot size doesn't matter. 

Regardless of choke, the shot cloud sent downrange by a shotgun expands diametrically about 1 inch per yard of downrange travel.  Tighter chokes concentrate the shot a bit better in the center of the pattern, but up to about 10-12 yards it won't make much difference.  Close range shotshell wounds--regardless of shot size--are best described as "rat hole aspect" wound trauma.

Deputy Al
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.187 seconds.