Hi, this is my first post.  I was given this link by a person on another site because he thought there are a lot of knowledgable people here.  I sure hope so.

I use a .30 M1 carbine for a dog-sized predator gun.  This is not a "toy".  I am not a varmint hunter.  This is a "keep-the-fox-outta-the-hen-coop" gun.  It is also for packs of feral dogs, running coyotes, etc.   I need a fast-shooting, easy-handling gun with a short range, as the nearest neighbor is a mile away and the house can be seen.  They have no sense of humor about being shot with a .22-50, or some other long-distance screamer.

My carbine is equipped with a forward-mounted Buris 2X Scout scope.  I use .32 caliber, 90 grain JHC bullets, or something similar.  I am a little concerned about the lead screwing up the gas port.  I would also like to have a gunsmith go over it and make sure everything is good before I refinish it in Roguard, or something.  The bluing is down to the white.  I can't understand why, it was just blued in 1943 before it went to Europe in WWII

I could sure use some advice, warnings, recommendations, links to more help, a good, trustworthy, non-rip-off gunsmith, etc.  I think it's worth the time and trouble.  I looked at every gun anyone could suggest, and no other gun fills the need. This is not a pump/lever, bolt action situation.

Thanks for the help

dzrtram -

welcome to BSB! good to see you here~~

hopefully, kingpin, DFC and others sill be able to give you some good advice on the gunsmithig aspects of your questions.

if you were looking for an entirely different rifle, i would suggest an SKS or mini-30, both of which are semi-auto and shoot 7.62x39 and can be loaded for just about any scenario. the SKS in particular has an advantage because good ones can be found for under 200$.

anyone lse have any suggestions, or better yet, any of the gunsmiths here have any advice specifically regarding his carbine?

drztram,

   If shot is under 100yds , or even 250 yds a 223 is quiet and will work on pred's.  Some folks will tell you they don't drop them hard, and in many cases they won't, but even a 22-250 doesn't drop them hard "sometimes" - mostly they thump the heck out of them.

   There are quite a few "not so loud" rounds out there that would work.  I would suggest you stay smaller than 308 sized cases for close work i.e. the 243, 22-250 and that family are pretty load.  30-30 will flatten a yote out to 150yds (here I'm thinking about drop not as much as power).  Tas has a good idea with the sks, even though I don't care for them. 

If you give some more information on the time, place, and critter your having problems with we may be able to suggest other courses of action.  I had weasels that were hittin our chicken coop once (I always thought it was a joke till it happened).  I remember my dad trying to shoot them buggers - man they are just a flash of light when they are moving.

Spot

I just read an old email I forgot I had from Sierra Bullets.  They guarantee me awesome results if I will reload the .30 using their .30 (.308) caliber, 85 grain bullet.  That should give me about 2200 fps, shouldn't it?  I want to stick with the .30 carbine because I have it, it was  cheap, it is cheap and esy to load, it is light and handy, and it is already fixed up with a scout scope.  I am the first to agree that it is not the ideal predator gun for many purposes, but for this one job it is ideal.   I need a fast-shooting, quick-handling carbine, and not even my Mini 14 handles like a my carbine. 

You guys are great

I'm all ears if you have more input.  I love to learn this stuff.  I like a site where you can state your opinion and not get flamed.

Spot shooter wrote: drztram,    If shot is under 100yds , or even 250 yds a 223 is quiet and will work on pred's.  Some folks will tell you they don't drop them hard, and in many cases they won't, but even a 22-250 doesn't drop them hard "sometimes" - mostly they thump the heck out of them.    There are quite a few "not so loud" rounds out there that would work.  I would suggest you stay smaller than 308 sized cases for close work i.e. the 243, 22-250 and that family are pretty load.  30-30 will flatten a yote out to 150yds (here I'm thinking about drop not as much as power).  Tas has a good idea with the sks, even though I don't care for them.  If you give some more information on the time, place, and critter your having problems with we may be able to suggest other courses of action.  I had weasels that were hittin our chicken coop once (I always thought it was a joke till it happened).  I remember my dad trying to shoot them buggers - man they are just a flash of light when they are moving. Spot

I want an m1 carbine soo bad!!!!! I bet they are awesome for plinking!!!!!!

NH_Hunter

 32 caliber bullets???????  max

man max, you seem to be the king of one liners! I dont think i have seen a single non-one liner from you!

NH_Hunter

Hey There

  Welcome to the Baitshop.

  My wife had an old M-1 that had been sporterized and could shoot the fire out of that thing,we never did reload for it just got the Winchester ammo for it and kept it clean and that right there is more than they had time for overseas. Worked great for just what you want,it always stayed right by the dresser with a full clip in the drawer.(I worked nights and I'd pity the fool that would mess with her)

The .30 M1 carbine cartridge CAN kill people. I think some people seem to forget that because the gun and cartridge are small. Maybe they should have asked the 101st airborne if they killed anybody with the m1 carbine . I bet they would answer with a whole hearted YES. It would be a sweet beside bed gun now wouldnt it

NH_Hunter

Fulton Armory seems to be terribly expensive, but I will ask, then call Tank's.

soggyshooter wrote: Got to agree with you on this one Tas. Get an SKS and send the Carbine off to Fulton Armory to get rebuilt to spec. Then shoot it for fun. That 7.62X39 is great on dog sized problems. I use mine to shoot the occasional song-dog.

They are one of the most fun guns to shoot.  Their size and incredible balance make them much easier to swing into action and follow running shots, especially in high chapparal, etc.  That's why I'm going to so much trouble to get it just right.  Well, a lot of it has to do with the fact that it is just fun to shoot.  I have a Mini 14, Marlin .30-30, Marlin Camp 9 (which is also a very fun gun), a very modified 10-22, and a friend has an SKS.  I would take the .30 carbine every time for close work (100 yds or less) guarding the chicken coop.

NH_Hunter wrote: I want an m1 carbine soo bad!!!!! I bet they are awesome for plinking!!!!!! NH_Hunter

Dzrtram;

I don't know if you realize it or not, but a terrible slippery slope lies ahead of you.  And I'm here to show you how to set the first foot upon it.  And thereby probably earn the undying enmity of Mrs. 'Tram in the process.

Were you aware that Ruger made the Blackhawk single action revolver in .30 carbine?  7.5" barrel, adjustable sights, blue & walnut.  Out of the current catalogue, but can certainly be found on the tables at gun shows or in websites.  Try http://www.gunsamerica.com - www.gunsamerica.com   or http://www.gunbroker.com - www.gunbroker.com .   That's the one I'd pick if it were me looking for the companion pistol to my carbine.  However, there also exists the AMT Automag III in .30 carbine.  This is a semi-auto, single action, stainless handgun with a rather deep grip.  AMT is no longer in business either.

There may be some other .30 carbine pistols, but I'm not immediately aware of them.  See?  Doesn't this hopefully new information start the wheels turning? 

900F

Hmmm . . . having fired thousands of rounds through the M1 carbine . . . and even more through the M2 . . . and knowing that more than one acquaintance grabbed them and bent them around a tree trunk and used an M1 Garand . . . and later . . . an M14 . . . I was always fascinated by the fascination that civilians had with the carbine . . . CUTE?  Yeah!  But not much good for anything . . . except WHAT YOU USE IT FOR.

There are so many better ways to go.  I had a Ruger Mini-14.  My father had one too.  I left mine in the box and shot his!  Whatever.  I liked that little weapon . . . not the most accurate thing in the world . . . but handy and you can get ammo just about anywhere for next to nothing.  If you live in Texas, it makes a fine whitetail and javelina rifle.

But . . . getting away from the military stuff . . . Ruger makes some other weapons which I think might meet your needs.  They make an excellent lever AND semi-auto .44 Mag.  The little bolt action in .44 Mag looks like a super weapon.  The .44 Mag would expand your uses too.

I had a Marlin 1894C in .357 Mag which has to be the neatest, cutest, handiest, little rifle ever invented.  I kept it behind the seat of my truck or in the car and it was handy for plinking, fooling around, or just about anything.  Although I never hunted with it, and probably wouldn't, it is certainly a capable short-range whitetail weapon.  Winchester has a Model 94 called the "Packer" which is neat too.

Gee . . . there are so many to pick from.  Myself, I would keep the M1 carbine in original form . . . have it refinished . . . pick up parts where needed . . . and take it out on occasion.  However, I think there are better choices for your interests . . . at least as I see them.

Just a few opinions.  Welcome to BSB.  Lots of good sources of info on here.  Take advantage of their wisdom . . . well . . . almost . . .

Oh yeah . . . I'm with MAX . . . the M1 carbine shoots .308 bullets.  Sierra makes a good little bullet in .308 110 grain round nose.  I wouldn't play around with anything larger in caliber.

Kinda funny, isn't it, when people say it's no good for varmints, but great for killing soldiers in cold weather clothing in Europe.  The old survivalist writer, Mel Tappan, and others, used to write abou the horrendous waste of money the government has done since WWII.  One thing they talked about was how the .30 carbine could be modified to be an excellent police patrol carbine.  People squawked about the overpenetration at close shots, then they gave the cops .223s, which are just about as wrong as anything gets for their purpose.  Then Mr. Ruger, who copied everything he could get his hands on, copied the Marlin Camp 9 and 45 and came up with the .40 that had, BTW, to use only Ruger magazines.  I don't remember how many carbines have been available, but the governments-- Federal, State, County, City, etc. --could have saved a lot of money with refurbished, and/or modified and upgraded .30 carbines.  The carbine has been so popular among soldiers that it was still being carried in Vietnam.  Just forgetting the M16 for a minute, if you were a LRRP in Nam, and you were 75 yards away from a VC who was shooting at you, what would you rather he be using, a .45 Colt, 9mm Berreta, or a .30 Carbine.  It's a no brainer for many reasons, which I won't go into because it should be obvious.  Each one of those calibers is capable of killing a man, a deer, antelope, or any dog that walks.  The inherent superiority of the firepower of the carbine is obviously why it is the choice, no matter what Jeff Cooper says (Rangers eat Marines for brkfst, so I will go with the choice of the "Bad Boys".  Well, I guess that isn't fair.  I don't remember what Cooper and his Marine buddies say about the .30

Internet just crashed.  I'll check to see if you get this

NH_Hunter wrote: The .30 M1 carbine cartridge CAN kill people. I think some people seem to forget that because the gun and cartridge are small. Maybe they should have asked the 101st airborne if they killed anybody with the m1 carbine . I bet they would answer with a whole hearted YES. It would be a sweet beside bed gun now wouldnt it NH_Hunter

How do you justify comparing a carbine to pistols?

"Just forgetting the M16 for a minute, if you were a LRRP in Nam, and you were 75 yards away from a VC who was shooting at you, what would you rather he be using, a .45 Colt, 9mm Berreta, or a .30 Carbine.  It's a no brainer for many reasons, which I won't go into because it should be obvious"

Dan

<FONT color=blue size=2>How do you justify comparing a carbine to pistols?

<FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#0000ff>"Just forgetting the M16 for a minute, if you were a LRRP in Nam, and you were 75 yards away from a VC who was shooting at you, what would you rather he be using, a .45 Colt, 9mm Berreta, or a .30 Carbine.  It's a no brainer for many reasons, which I won't go into because it should be obvious"

<FONT color=#0000ff size=2>Dan

Dzrtram;

"Although I don't understand how you misunderstood using the .30 carbine in place of a pistol, you do illustrate how little people understand the .30. 

"That's the one I'd pick if it were me looking for the companion pistol to my carbine."

The operative word being: COMPANION.

900f

Pocketnavy, how can you justify using a .223 on deer? I bet you just wanted to make even more controversy than there already is .

NH_Hunter

Jayrando;

So - how does one cite oneself in Nevada?  Did your friend require medical attention to recover from the laughing fit?  The questions are endless!

900F

         The first rifle I ever had was a GI 30 carbine and I would love to have another !   for keeping foxes out of the hen hous its a great tool !

     I would ditch the scope and either use the factory sights or put an red dot on it.  There are lots of good hollow points available for it and that would make caribne a fine stopper. Its true lots of GI,S cussed it but they were stuck with geneva convention hard ball ammo. I guarentee with a good stif load of 296 at a 1900 fps a 110 grain HP in the M1 would stop a fox or a wolf or a coyote rel quick and would make a very good home defence gun to boot !

   ...tj3006

  What about those .32 caliber bullets??????? Don't they seat sort of hard in that .30 carbine case? max

Max, i believe you already mentioned that. GIVE THE GUY A BREAK. HE MADE A MISTAKE!!! GET OVER IT!!!!!

NH_Hunter

I thought about a red dot, but I've never seen one on a .30 carbine.  I'm sure someone has done it.  Do you have any idea how to mount it, or what red dot is best, or anything.  As I said, I am open to any suggestions.  To tell the truth, I'm just having fun with my .30.  I can't stand having it just lying around.  Gotta put it to some good use.[

QUOTE=tj3006]

         The first rifle I ever had was a GI 30 carbine and I would love to have another !   for keeping foxes out of the hen hous its a great tool !

     I would ditch the scope and either use the factory sights or put an red dot on it.  There are lots of good hollow points available for it and that would make caribne a fine stopper. Its true lots of GI,S cussed it but they were stuck with geneva convention hard ball ammo. I guarentee with a good stif load of 296 at a 1900 fps a 110 grain HP in the M1 would stop a fox or a wolf or a coyote rel quick and would make a very good home defence gun to boot !

   ...tj3006

Sigh . . . here we go again . . . well, the .223 is widely used for deer in the South . . . so you "get over it."  Better yet, hunt in the South a little before you share your "expertise."  It is an excellent whitetail deer round . . . no arguments ever existed about that.  If it will drop a human it will drop a small deer . . . although that is a morbid comparison.  Whitetail deer in Texas are quite small . . . on the average.

But . . . think we were talking about the .30 carbine . . . which is an entirely different subject.

Isn't it time for high school to start in NH?  Let's see . . . aren't you a sophomore?  And besides that, your "expertise" with the M1 carbine, a weapon that I used extensively at least 30 years before you were born, lacks a firm foundation.  I was assigned M1s, M2s, and .45s . . . and qualified with all of them.  If you don't know, the M2 was the full-automatic version of the M1 carbine . . . although it would heat up and jam before you could get 2 magazines through it.  Useless little twit for that purpose.  Share your own experiences NH!  You will be much more credible.  Geez!

All this "Nam" talk precedes you by the same number of years.  Most guys used an M-16, M-14, and a .45.

The M1 carbine was outlawed for deer hunting because it is a "p--- poor" game killer.  There are much better choices . . . a good .30-30 comes to mind!

     Read the the post that started this thread The guy is using the carbine for close range fast shooting to protect his livestock. he will be shooting predators, not deer or people. Also he is a handloader. His M1 is a grat choice for a fast handeling low recoiling short range critter gitter. And in the case of using the carbine as a home protection piece with hollow points it would be an excelent choice provided it is reliable. Although over penatration would be a concern.

   Certainly the carbine with hardball is a poor choice in a fire fight but when coyotes start shooting back I'll probly do a lot more fishing ! The biggest problem I have with the carbine is that for its relitivly whimpy power level, it is awfully loud ! 

   ...tj3006

True . . . and I did read what he said . . . I just get pissed when guys start trying to "deify" a weapon that lacks any real civilian application beyond his stated uses.  I also get more than twirked when people who lack experience with them make claims that lack credibility.  As I said before, there are reasons why the M1 carbine was banned from the hunting fields in most states.  Too many deer were wounded . . . sad.  A bunch of those were caused by guys using surplus ammo.

As a plinker, for shooting small game, as a self-defense weapon [it's original use] it is just fine.  Most guys I knew, in the military, found them to be a p--- poor weapon.  Frankly, within 25 yards, give me a .45 any day!  Beyond that?  An M14 will do what I want to do.  Still don't like the M-16 and all its brothers.  But, I am from the "old school."

We go through this "carbine" discussion about every three months.  It doesn't change anything.  There are some really nice .357 Mag to .44 MAG and .45 Colt weapons out there that are quite adequate.  The Marlin 1894C comes to mind.  I thought mine was great . . . run piles of ammo through it without any problem.  Far superior to the carbine.  A Winchester "Packer" is another great choice . . . so are several models of Rugers.  Yep . . . I am an anti-carbine person . . . with good justification.

Wow! Talk about hitting it right on the head.  Good job!  This proves some people do listen.  Others would rather argue.  I suggest we drop the whole subject of carbines.  Even many soldiers during the war didn't understand the carbine.  Why Pocketnavy keeps wanting to compare it to a battle rifle, which is an infantry weapon, instead of to a pistol, as was intended, is wierd to me.  You described my use exactly.  I could not find a better weapon to fill my needs.  The darned thing has hung around the house for years not serving any need.  As Pocketnavy said, correctly, I might add, the carbine is not good for deer hunting, not as good as a pistol in tight (defensive) places, and certainly not a competition rifle.  So, I found it's place, and I seriously doubt anything could do better for the need which you described for me.

I could go on and explain why the .223 is the wrong weapon for deer also, but my oldest son, a Marine rifle instructor, could do that better, so we'll leave it for another topic, except to say that the .223 is designed to STOP an enemy, not necessarily kill that enemy, and we all know why. It causes devastating wounds, per my son's experience in the Corps, and that's why most states won't let you use it on deer.  It could wound them horribly, but not kill them.  It's use is not comparable in any way to the .30, which could kill deer the same as a .357 handgun at close ranges....but I don't recommend it.

BTW, I have decided to use Sierra's .308 85 gr. RN in some cases, and Speer's 110 gr. Varmint bullet in other situations.  These are what the factories recommend to me and assured great results.  They said that would probably be the best way to go, even if the .32 does work, or would work, as the case may or may not be.  The .32 does load up in that .30 brass and makes a nice looking bullet, though.

Nice job paying attention to the topic, instead of going off on a tangent.  I appreciate the support.

tj3006 wrote:      Read the the post that started this thread The guy is using the carbine for close range fast shooting to protect his livestock. he will be shooting predators, not deer or people. Also he is a handloader. His M1 is a grat choice for a fast handeling low recoiling short range critter gitter. And in the case of using the carbine as a home protection piece with hollow points it would be an excelent choice provided it is reliable. Although over penatration would be a concern.    Certainly the carbine with hardball is a poor choice in a fire fight but when coyotes start shooting back I'll probly do a lot more fishing ! The biggest problem I have with the carbine is that for its relitivly whimpy power level, it is awfully loud !     ...tj3006

Well DZRTRAM . . . we are not as far apart as it might seem.  First, I am well aware of the history of the development of the M1 carbine . . . and the fact that SOME people thought it might be a better weapon than the .45 ACP.  Some people think it was . . . some don't . . . I am in the latter group.  The M1 carbine, and even more so, the M2 carbine, were erratic at best, inaccurate at least, and not much protection at the worst.  I'll cross your eyes permanently with a .45 . . . I'd have to wait and see what was happening with a .30 cal M1 carbine.

No . .  I was NOT comparing it with a battle rifle . . . it is just that in combat one must make wise choices . . . an extra couple of pounds saved might mean a life lost.

I point out again that I have quite a bit of experience with the carbine . . . particularly with the M2 . . . and its associated infrared scope.  Although all I ever did with the M-16 was qualify with it, I would MUCH rather have the M-16 - as a lightweight weapon - than the M1/M2.  They served a purpose - to some people - in their time - but the Army moved on to better things.

As far as the .223 not being legal for deer - that is just not true.  I used a Mini-14 on whitetail deer in Texas and it was a one-shot kill.  However, I must admit, that I usually recommend something else for big-game hunting.  I have had two .30-06 rifles and they, like the old M1, do what they do with great effectiveness.  I would never buy another .223 - except for varmint hunting.

Just a suggestion - since you are interested in varmint hunting - how about something in .223 or .22-250?  Great for such uses.

Ummmm Pocketnavy, i never said anything about using the .30 carbine in Vietnam. In fact, i dont remember ever saying anything about Vietnam. When have i used the term "Nam" anyways? Also, i knew about the m2, and how bad it was. I also never said anything about hunting with a .30 carbine.

I know i lack expertise, but i do know how to read. I know that the m1 carbine HAS killed people. Are you denying that?

Now, what is pissing you off so much that i am doing? No need to be an a**hole. Like i said to some guy over at Shooters, TAKE A CHILL PILL!!!

NH_Hunter

Oh, by the way, Pocketnavy, Dzrtram already said why he didnt want a .223 or a .22-250, so why bring it up?

Also, if you are a man of the cloth, as you say you are, doenst God tell us to be kind to one another? I guess you misread that in the Bible or something.

NH_Hunter

NH Hunter, just ignore what's going on.  As the old saying goes, "You can tell the size of a man by the size of the thing that makes him angry".  All this talk about M16s, M1s, etc, have nothing to do with the subject we are discussing.  Pocketnavy, hereafter referred to as PN, is way off topic.  What he has to say has merit.... if that's what we were discussing, but we are NOT!  Whatever the .30 could or could not do in war has absolutely not one thing to do with our discussion.  I got off on that too.  It was I who brought up Vietnam where some .30s were used by LRRPs and others because they are not offensive weapons, but do have high penetration.  If you look up a ballistics chart you will see that the muzzle energy of the .357 and the .30 carbine are nearly identical. Let's just leave it at this.  I got pretty upset too when an adult talks to a teenager like that.  There is no call for it.  You seem to be a fine young man who wants to learn, and is doing a good job of researching.

Keep it up.

Thank you Dzrtram! I also forgot, WELCOME TO THE BSB!!!!! We appreciate all the new members, bringing in new ideas. It also means that there are more people to be helped. I do my best.

NH_Hunter

NH,

 Many moons ago I played with a carbine and reloaded for it with a Pacific tong tool. Someone,,Speer maybe, made a 100 grain 30 cal half jacket bullet called the 'Plinker" and it was my choice in the carbine. I don't remember the powder but it may have been 2400. Anyway, I missed loading powder in a case and seated a bullet. Fortunately, when chambered and fired, the primer moved the bullet just far enough out of the case so that following rounds would not chamber. I thought the rest of the loaded rounds were not sized enough. I discovered my error later and knocked the stuck bullet loose. It is somewhere in a box around here now. After reading this thread I remembered that close call. I am gazing at that carbine now. If you ever get the chance, manipulate the bolt of a carbine and watch how it locks up. Notice the play in it. Try to imagine that action trying to handle a hot load of pistol powder and a .32 bullet. Held up by someone's face. I'd like to think you'd ask about bullet choice as well.

dzrtram,

 It sounds like you're ready to go now. Long live those carbines. max

Hey Max, what are you talking about? I never said anything about using .32 caliber bullets in a m1 carbine. I have known that it is .30 caliber, because it is .30 M1 Carbine.

NH_Hunter