What's this word "flame"? The 22 centerfires and any centerfire which includes the 17's can be legally used here in Mich for deer in the rifle areas. As I recall youse Montanians can even use the 223 for elk. Back in '73 one of our young MT guide assistances used a 223. He was a trapper on the side. There's an old story I once read about how the gamewardens in MT were so impressed with the havoc generated on an elk by a 220 Swift, that 22 centerfires been been legal since. I'd use my 220 on deer here, but have better choices. FWIW.

Gene Dip(aka "Big Dipper")

i wouldn't use a 223 on deer. i have too many other rifles suited better for the job. the question rob asks -'why' - is a good one.

story time: last year i was babysitting an area, just watching deer. i watched a small buck come down a trail and right to a hunter sitting on a knoll, maybe 60 yard shot. the hunter took the neck shot. i watched as the deer dropped. a minute later, when the hunter went to claim his deer, the deer jumped up, and took off right towards me, and angled down into some real thick-n'-nasty cattails. hunter asks me if i saw his deer... i find out he's shooting a 223 because it doesn't tear up any meat, and he takes neck shots so he won't loose any meat.

i told him where his deer went, and watched him go in there. 5 (!!!) shots later he had his deer. went down to check out his prize, and the deer was just riddled w/ holes. at least he got it. i wonder, though... does that single hole i put through a deer w/ a bigger gun in the ribs destroy as much meat as a half dozen 223 shots scattered over the body?

i'm not disputing a 223's ability to (eventually) take a deer... but w/ the same payoff (dead deer), and much higher risks, why do it?

The .223 is getting some mileage here in Missouri these days, but usually in the hands of beginning hunters. The disaster stories that acompany the cartridge do surface from time to time. I think the road to disaster with this cartridge is paved first by the advisory adults that don't select decent or even reasonable bullets for anything bigger than coyotes. Usually off the shelf whatever's handy ammo. The next ingredient is the shooting ability and/or fire discipline of the shooter. I've heard of some lightning bolt kills with the .223 and do believe it. Short range and excellent shot placement usually are the deciding factor. As for my dabbling with the round, I figured that working up a top end load that would do for deer in a pinch would be a good thing. Anything will kill coyotes so why not use a "marginal" deer load in the little Sako for a do-all?

I tried some of the 60 grain Hornady bullets over a moderate charge of H335 and the 200 yard groups were very promising. I think the twist rate must be sufficient for 60's at least. I've heard that there may be better powder choices than H335 for bullets in the 60-64 grain range. I recall that Winchester did get some press several years ago when the 64 grain Premium? Supreme? .223 load came out, and that it was positive. Supposed to be a fair "Texas" whitetail load. Our deer here in the lower half of Missouri don't average all that much heavier, so I figured to give it a whirl and have the little Sako as a backup deer rifle if ever needed.AW 

I think the 223 can kill deer with the proper shot placement.  I've got better rifles so I'll probably not use it. 

My own thinking would be to use the heaviest bullet available, and then reduce the velocity to minimize any expansion.  If I used it I would hunt it like a bow, looking for double lung shot with perfect placement.

BEAR

Hey KP... it kicks less

I know a guy in TX that has used a Ruger in .223 forever.  It has a Leupold scope on it that is so old that it is purple instead of black.  He uses the 63 gr. Sierra exclusivly with great success.

My father has used a 53 gr. X-bullet out of a .22-250 for doe hunts that also worked well.

What was that??????

Did I see a booger go flying by???????

BEAR

What's 'Mexican Match'? 

I'll put in another quarter.  

".223 Deer Loads"

adobe- in the 223, i found varget and h-322 to be the best performing powder w/ bullets 60 grains or heavier.

this should not be misconstrued as an endorsement of the 223 for a deer rifle. in my own 223's w/ 60's and heavier, best accuracy comes from those two powders. varget works poorly w/ light bullets. h-322 works well, but is short on velocity.

I guess I need to get my .02 in since the early 60's the .223 has been killing 150-280 lb men, Why not a 150-200lb deer? I have a NEF Altra hunter in .223 that is not only legal to use in NYS but also capable. Having said that I have elected to use my 30-06 for the first year (this year) that we are allowed to use rifles in the part of NY, not because the .223 won't work but because I want the range that my 30-06 affords me. Oh my wife will be hunting this year for the first time and she has a chioce of my SKS or her .223, Her choice.

Oh sorry got off track if she picks the .223 she has been shooting some 63 GR. sierra semi pointed rounds that is what I will be loading for her.

I have a friend who shot a deer each of 8 consecutive years with a .222 Remington and each was a one shot kill. This was in the 1960s. He was using a SAKO with a fixed 4 power scope and handloads. This guy was an exceptional marksman and all but one were headshots. Before you throw the 15 yard bullshit flag you have to realize that he approached hunting with this rig much the same as most people would bowhunt. Extremely close standing shots. The only one that wasn't a head shot happened when a doe jerked her head up and he caught her under the chin and through the throat. Lungs looked like a bomb went off in her ribcage. Except for this ont though a .22 rimfire probably could have done the job. Please understand I'm not a fan of .22 CF for deer but for this particular guy it worked out fine. He did eventually buy an .06. RD

Adobe Walls wrote: All I needed was good a good powder load combo to try in the Sako. Figured someone had already been there and done that. Didn't intend to fire up a debate on the pros or cons on the cartridge for the purpose. Guess I'll just try the 64 grain bullet over a starting load for a 60 and see what happens downrange.AW

Adobe Walls,

I have been using a post '84 Winchester Model 70 carbine(20"bbl) since 1987 for our smallish Texas Hill Country whitetails.  My load with WW cases and WW55gr SP bullets is 27.0grs. of Hogdon's BallC2 powder and WW SR primers, chrono velocity is average 3,075fps.  3-shot groups at 100 yards average 0.75".  This combination has accounted for 35+ deer and 2 Aoudad rams since then.  That said however, bullet placement is critical...most have been neck shots on the deer but the 2 Aoudads received their killer bullets in the lungs.  The Aoudads went about 50 yards prior to expiring.

Ol' John 

Hondo,

Thanks. I've got some Ball C (2) here and that might make for a recipe for those 64 grain bullets with a little load adjustment from your 55's. I figure if I can get around 2900 FPS or so MV with decent accuracy at 200 yards, it'll suffice for coyotes and deer at least to 150 with reasonable reliability. I think the .223 is both more and less gun simultaneously than lots of folks think it is. I find it odd that backwoods types and subsistence hunters almost always used "little" guns for their meat hunting when compared to the average "sportsman" hunter type. I guess it's HOW you employ what you have more than anything else.AW

Adobe Walls wrote: Hondo, Thanks.  ............................................ I think the .223 is both more and less gun simultaneously than lots of folks think it is. I find it odd that backwoods types and subsistence hunters almost always used "little" guns for their meat hunting when compared to the average "sportsman" hunter type. I guess it's HOW you employ what you have more than anything else.AW

"backwoods types and subsistence hunters"  that is a pretty accurate description of yours truly.  I currently live on a cattle ranch that has mananged to survive thru drought and screw-worm flies and other calamities for 4 generations........The plan has always been to sell the beef for "cash money" and put venison in the freezer.  I much prefer the taste of venison over beef anyway!  My "little" .223 is good for coyotes to about 250yards but for deer my yardage is limited to about 125 as that is about the max I feel comfortable taking neck shots.  That said, however, most shots are in the 60-75 yard range.  Neck shots are preferred as very little meat is wasted and my particular rifle is more than accurate enough for taking those types of shots.  I am definitely not recoil sensitive and have shot most every centerfire up to and including the .375 H&H.  I have been doing custom riflesmithing for the last 8 or so years.  As a general rule I do not recommend the .223 for the inexperienced shooter/hunter.  Most want a .243 or better anyway........whatever "floats your boat" and you have confidence in is the best rifle/caliber there is.  I know I can get the job done with my particular .223 and the terrain/game I hunt in.  It also does nicely on the little feral "piggies" up to about 100lbs or so........its getting where we have more piggies than deer and they do BBQ well.........but thats another story for another day.  Hope you get a good combination worked up for your .223 and find success.

Ol' John

kingpin haven't got "his" 30.06 out of layaway, he used my 30.06 to take the deer, but just a couple of days now and i'll have the money to pickup his rifle, course then we'll have to scope it! bore sight it, and oh dread go to the range and shoot it (alot), but i am glad he got plenty of trigger time prior to this hunt, once i pointed out the deer he took it from there, eased the rifle into place and made his shot with out any "help" from dad, since i was carrying my .204 for turkey, it was all on him to make a clean kill on the deer! he did great! and as you can tell proud father is rambling on! i'm glad i opted to put a 30.06 in his hands rather than a .223, sorry i just don't think a .223 is enough gun for a deer!

and once again kingpin where did you get that avatar?

Well I guess I will take the .223 out this week and see if I can kill a deer, I have some loads for the 30-06 I loaded up for this perpose but I am sure that I can kill a deer with my NEF .223 out to about 200 yds. It is shooting a 1/2 moa @ that distance and I think a head shot will do it.

John