Only recently have I really given the issue of inlines some deep philosophical thought:

They are currently the rifle of the legalist.

There is no question that the muzzleloader or primitive firearm seasons were, in the states where they were established; based on antique styles of firearms from the 19th century and before.

In order for one to use an inline muzzleloader in a muzzleloading rifle season, one must either give it no deep thought at all; or either acknowledge the fact that the equipment has eclipsed the regulations and original intent of the law and simply not care that using it constitutes unfair technological advantage even though it's legal.

 Legalism is simply a way of "passing the buck" based on the letter of the law as opposed to doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Legal or not, taking unfair advantage isn't a  way to have a "clean" success.AW  

Adobe,.... Them's my thots "exactly", but my thots ain't win'n any "popularity contests" among the inline-shooters!!

Here's sumpthin else to think 'bout,.......

I do understand some of "their" defense in regards to the inlines, and I think it is largely because they bought an inline as a "first" muzzleloader after "read'n/hear'n/watch'n" all the hype 'bout'em.

I know what it's like to be straped for money, so a fella tends to "defend" his first choice in a firearm (or, other equipment) 'cause he'd rather not admit, he "may" have made a wrong choice!

I hate "sales hype" of any kind,.... it's "SOLE PURPUS" is to git as much of "yore money" as it can,.... 'for the "competition" git's it!!

If "sales" of inlines were to "drop-off", I'm sure the inline-industry would start show'n "ad's" of,..... "naked beautys" try'n to seduce hunters, who tote a praticular inline muzzleloader!  (we "see" this in other "sales",.. don't we??!!)

('cum'on fellas, "quit" buy'n them inlines,... and,... let's "see" if I'm right!!)

Ok, how about we drop this whole anti-inline and anti-traditionalist stuff. It is getting tireing. We have been hearing about it for about a week, and it is boring now! By the way, rondo, how long have you been at shootersville.net? WHen i used to frequent it more often i dont think i ever noticed you there.

NH_Hunter

 I'm just starting to realize just how much these inlines get peoples goat. AW, I think your over thinking it. I'll explain my motive's for purchasing the two inlines I've bought. The first one, a Whites .50 cal, I saw on the rack at Scheels about six years ago. I was just in there to be looking around. It caught my eye as I had been wanting to hunt a area restricted to ML,handgun, shotgun only. I bought it. The second a .54 cal Knight I bought a store closing sale. I wasn't looking for one. I bought a bunch of stuff dies, bullets, boots etc etc. It was simply a deal. If there had been traditionals there at the same price reductions I would have bought them too. I'm sure your thinking apllies to some, but the truth of the matter is you traditional types are just in a deep state of agony over all this and it's driving you all nuts. Keep on calling everybody else idiots and living the elitest snob lifestyle I quess misery really does love company among the ranks of the trad. guys.

 Rollingb

Hey, I have a gun for sale.....Here's a pic

Rob!,..... If she was hold'n a purty "inlayed curly maple" stocked, traditional muzzleloader,.... inline "sales" would be "non-existant"!!!!!!..

Advertiser's have known for many years,.... thet "sex sells"!! 

BTW,.... how much, ya ask'n for the "pair"??

NH,.... "Once upon a time",.... ther weren't any such "disputes",.... then along came the "inlines"!!

I've joined "Shootersville",.... before "Shooters" went "KA-PUT"!

Rob1,..... Thet would be a big "NOPE"!! (in answer to yore question)

Now here's my question,..... Do you hunt "under water"??? HA! HA! HA!

Actually, "if" a feller knows "what" he's do'n, even flintlocks will work good in the "rain" when hunt'n!

Which brings up anuther "thot",....... any of the subsitute fake "powders" are rendered "useless" after git'n wet,...... however,.... "real" blackpowder can be "dried out" and works as good as "new"!! 

(some "things", jest cain't be "improved on"!!)

Rob1,.... WELL!!.... I did "fall" while cross'n a rocky creek once!!

...... but, I managed to cushion the "fall" of my riflegun, by use'n my head!! 

RollinB - They do indeed increase in value. My competition rifle, that I payed $1200 for about ten years ago, was appraised at $4500 last fall. And I suspect it will just keep going up. The Beckwith flinter I built for about $600 in parts about fifteen years ago, is appraised at $2100. I don't see many (any?) modern rifles increasing in value like this.

I can stand it.

You fellar's ought to say it straight, we get In-lines cause it's easier to be lazy then to do all that work, and learn somethin.

  I think it's a fair challange fer most rifleman to settle down to shooting ONE shot.  That's why everythin ain't a fallin' block.

 Spot

 Spot

 So when are you trading in your Browning on a flinter?

Mr. Mom,.... I'm not surprised to hear such news. I mentioned the state of Idaho, in one of my other posts. Idaho now has 2 different muzzleloader seasons, one for inlines, and the other for traditional muzzleloaders.

The most "recent" of the 2, is the one for inlines (the inline industry's representives, were lobby'n the state to "relax" the regs to allow "new improvements" of the latest inlines,...... instead however,..... the state intoduced a "new" season for inlines),.... NOW,.... if a "problem" should arise in regards to "deer density" (for any reason) Idaho can discontinue "1" of the "special seasons"!!..... anyone wanna bet "which" season will "go" first if "1" is discontinued???????  (least this is the way it was explained to me)

"You fellar's ought to say it straight, we get In-lines cause it's easier to be lazy then to do all that work, and learn somethin.

  I think it's a fair challange fer most rifleman to settle down to shooting ONE shot.  That's why everythin ain't a fallin' block"

 I can't buy into that one. Inlines are also one shot and reload. If I had to chose a weapon for war and my choice was a inline or a black powder cartridge single shot, it's the black powder cartridge. I'll give it a edge for hunting as well and the tradtional guys love these

 Nothing lazy about it all. Exactly what is "all that work". I do believe the intent of a muzzleloader season was with a "primitive" rifle in mind. As it's been pointed out modern inlines didn't exist. I also wonder if a old, very old, german made inline flinter was used, would this be a sin also? Can anyone tell it's cabin fever season?

So when are you trading in your Browning on a flinter?

I've seen some original Brownings that were very nice plains rifles, rather similar to the Hawkens. I've only seen one flint example, but I'm sure others exist, although Browning was definitely working at the tail end of the flintlock era, and I suspect the ones he built were using up left over locks.

But, I also believe even the price of the reproductions have climbed quite high, if you can even find someone to part with them. Good shooting, good looking rifles. I've been in the old Jonathan Browning gun shop in Navoo, Illinois probably a dozen times over the years. Amazing the quality that could come from such a simply equiped shop.  

Rob,

   You ever shot one of them side ignition job's?

  Takes a bit more skill to not jump when the pan goes, or you see the hammer fall.  Then there's that extra .15 second to 1.2 second gap where you just might move.  Hell, you might forget to get the powder over to the side in the first place. and just snap 2 or 3 caps afore you get her to light off.

  In line you don't see nothin move, and the typical delay is much less.  Especially if yer not using flint guns.  I did the lazy thing with an in-line because I didn't have enough desire to learn BP, but then again it weren't my goal to learn it.  I was my goal to hunt in BP season to see if I could stalk instead of sit.  So I got a disc rifle, heck it used 209's and we're talkin years ago when CO outlaw'd them fer a year back then when I got mine. 

  Anyway, to me if you BP hunt for BP, yer goal is to know you can hunt with a smoke pole that you don't need more than a store to get lead and powder from.  That's it, you don't need a scope, or bullet path chart, powder scale, or concentricty (sp) guage.  Also you know that the critter get's extra right's on gettin out of there if you don't do your job.  Some status to it for me, thet a man can be more independant or at least less reliant on some civilized industrial machine to put his cartidges in a pretty box, and advertise how macho this new super velocity cartridge is.  Don't think it's trutch, think about an elk hunt where it's scratch and sniff. Kind of like see and shoot - I'm a little disapointed in my Mule deer hunt.  I saw them at 300 and in less than 3 second's they were down.  That was the extent of my hunt.

  Hell, with modern riffles you don't even need to think about how yer shooting cause it's a flat shooter out to 400 yds.  i.e. it's more the gun then the hunt since we've extended the range.  There's a bit (really a large bit) of gray area between where hunting skills stop and marksmanship starts.  Today we're rely'n on, mostly technology - but then again a man who puts that much effort into a BP gun will most likely follow over his ethic on the game he's huntin.  And I place that high on my value scale.

   So that pretty much cut's it, a guy who's bein' more reliant upon his-self is gonna tend to do the same when it comes to learn'n the game.  Maybe my idear of respectin' these feller's fer the extry effort ain't so elegent.  But I beleive that lookin' at the best part of other's is the way to go.  Old angery, mean folk tend to bitch 'bout other's all the time. 

No here's the funny thang, smoke pole guy's don't do much complain'n, maybe that's why I'm try'n to get them gray beards to tell me what's most important 'bout life instead of try'n to prove I know somethin' they don't.  For me it ain't most likely true, so I'm gonna keep pester'n then till they tell me what they learnt.  Don't think I'll be any less fer hold'n the company.  I already learnt how to make a jug full of apply pie - BTW RollingB, that stuff is good fer block'd up sinus's. 

Spot

Rob,

   When the kid leaves the house, I've got more time, and my dad passes on.

Right now I'm holdin' down pullin' in the most meat.  Pretty much 3 deer a year, I ain't never maid it be a trophy hunter.  I guess that's next, I've been havin' way too much fun chasin' whitetails every way I can, and teachin' others young'ns to hunt.  Once I got this 14 year old of mine broke in right, I'll start playin' with black powder again.

  Heck, just listen'n to these feller's and Saddlesore's tales have got me want'n to get back in the game.  I've decided to use my bow this year fer a big rack (not talkin' a tux either). 

   On the serious side, I did just get restarted huntin after a long time of not hunt'n at all.  I just got my two rifles and I'm good, now I'd like to enjoy hunting with some of the older feller's who can teach me more then I know.  After I feel I have and inclin' 'bout what I'm doin' I'll start playin' with building a smoke pole.   Just like you make stocks' I'd like to put more into my rifles then bedd'n and load building.  Huntn's and choosin' what to kill is a highly personal thing.

Spot

NH,

 I think it requires some time and gray hair thrown in to get real philosophical over much of anything. The issue is whether or not a modern rifle in every way, except for breech loading and speed of fire, deserves to be allowed in a season that was intended for antiquated technology at it's inception. Fairness is out the window in states where the inlines have been able to creep in. We might as well be shooting single shot Ruger #1's in .45/70 for what little difference can be found in field performance between that and Knight's finest. This is a sport, not survival hunting where any advantage can mean something critical. All sports have rules and limits; it just has to be decided what those are.AW 

Rob,

I suppose your situation is different than that of others. You mentioned a restricted area, open to shotguns, handguns, and ML's. Sounds pretty much like bureaucratic gobbledy gook regulations,(as many are) but your inline should fit right in with the rifled shotguns shooting sabot slugs.AW 

I have a great idea. Lets all lobby to do away with all special seasons. Lump everyone from spear throwers to shoulder thumping magnums into one season. Let everyone use what they want. The traditionalist smoke poll shooters shouldn't complain then as they all all great hunters and don't need a special season of thier own. You can bet, most DOW's would welcome doing away with the special seasons.

Same with archery seasons. When they started , a recurve bow as considered high tech. Now you have all those pulleys ,release gizmos, sights etc. I haven't heard any complaints about everyone should use a long bow only

I have a cap lock and an inline. Bought the inline becasue my cap lock cracked a stock a week before a deer season . In the last few weeks I have made another stock for the Hawkin, but haven't shot it yet.

Of the two elk I have shot with muzzle loaders, one was with an inline, one was with the cap lock. Both were under 50 yds, both died about the same. I can't see much differnce. Same with deer.

The truth be known if someone is so hung up on what a hunter uses to hunt with and thinks his way is the only way, that person is hunting and in the field for all the wrong reasons. Course that's my opinion only  

Guy's,

    I've got to agree with Saddlesore on the one shot deal for BP.  He didn't say it but to me there is a difference in an in-line and side burner, but not enough to completely disqualify a feller.  You don't get 300 yard shots on Mulies or elk, and for whitetails in woods you still only get 1 shot.

  Somehow not hearin' BLAM!, BLAM!, BLAM!, BLAM! is a good thing to me.  I still give the fella's who know black powder good enough to do it with either a bit more respect than those who do it for novelty.  However, most fella's who ain't fit to shoot can't hang with it so and quit, so maybe it's got a higher purpose.

Spot

Saddlesore,.... Thet'd be fine with me,.... 'cause it wouldn't change my hunt'n situation "1-iota"!!

I'm not really sure jest how much an "iota" is,.... but,.. I know, I'd still be hunt'n right 'long-side the centerfires, like I'm do'n now!

However, the inline industry would fight such an effort "tooth'n nail"!!

Actually I'm purty sure the "compound-bow rage" also started after the original archery-seasons were already innerduced, much like the "inline-rage" (buy it today, and be'a expert tomorrow, and you don't haft'a put up with the simple weapon's "idiosyncratic traits"....)!!

I'm glad you had "two" successful hunts with yore muzzleloaders while hunt'n the regular centerfire season!!   (I warn't so "lucky" this year, but,... I still had a "GREAT" time, and made some memorys!)

Waksupi,

    Now that's a slant I hadn't thought of.

hmmmmm....

Ya'll keep it up and I'm gonna end up makin' one fer my own self.

   And on that subject I think I'll start a post on sugestions fer green horn's want'n a real nice self assembled/made round ball hurling smoke pole.

Spot

Waksupi,

    The more I think about it, and you talk about it I might just try that approach.  I had all but given up and was thinking about going in with two other fella's to lease ground so I could have some guests from the mountains come over.

  Hell, half of ya shoot BP anyway!

Spot

RollingB. Sorry to say the two elk were shot in muzzle seasons. One, two  years ago in CO, and one this year in New Mexico in  an area where only archery and ML were permitted. I also took one cow with a centerfire rifle this year.

Colorado has so many elk , they have been offering extra cow tags to people . So last yr I took a 5pt bull and a cow with centerfire, and this year, I got skunked in muzzle season, but got one in centerfire season.

I eat a lot of elk! But even if I get skunked, I love to chase them.

Saddlesore,

    What type of Boolist's were you using for kiling them elk?

Spot

Spot shooter, With the Hawkin 50 cal, I used a TC maxiball that I cast and then put a 1/8" dia Hollow point in itabout 3/16 " deep.  with 100 gr of FFG Goex. It punched right through the elk. Found out last yr that you can't buy the TC molds anymore and mine is pretty much used up. When the gun was shooting good it would shoot under 3 inches at 100 yds. I got to try out the new stock soon and see if will still do it.

With The TC inline, I used the CVA Power Belt with 100 gr of Triple Seven FFG. IT ended up under the hide on the far side  of a lung shot, and clipped the back of the off shoulder blade. However all I found of it were pieces, not the whole bullet. The inlines seem not to like the cast bullets. The tech at TC told me the inline needs a more accruately made bullet. It wouldn't shoot any of the cast bullets in less than 18 inches at 100 yds. With the Power Belts, it will do better than I can shoot . Supposedly you can stuff 150 grains in it, but I would sure hate the recoil and see no need for that much powder when I shoot most of my elk  ender 50 yds. 

Roling B. If my old eyes could see the iron sights better ( I hate those fiber Optic sights), I would try the ML in Regular season. I have  a peep sight on the Hawkin, and it's a might better, but stiill pretty fuzzy.With regular iron sights, I can't make out any notch or V on any back sights any more.

Today I went out to the range to shoot the Hawkin with the new stock. Sure gets frustrating. It shoots the same as before. Couldn't hold it on a 2 ft square at 100 yds. I know it's not me as the I can shoot the inline under 3" at the same distance.

I had sent this gun back to TC because I wore the 1st barrel out. They rebarreled, and it didn't shoot as well, I could never get it sighted in. I had noticed  a crack in the stock and I figured that was the probalem. I fixed it with accruglass, but it didn't do any better. I then restocked it.

I'm beginning to think TC sent me  bad barrel. I'm going to call them tommorrow and see what they say.