AI improved cartridges???/
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Topic: AI improved cartridges???/
Posted By: BEAR
Subject: AI improved cartridges???/
Date Posted: 24 June 2016 at 12:53
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First im a BIG fan of P.O. But he is rooted in the 1960s.
The only advantages of an AI cartridge is slightly more powder and a slighly less tapped in the body. These things were good in the 1960s when powder choices were limited, and lots of terrible heavy taper body cartridges were floating around from the 1800 and early 1900s. things like 300 H&H, 30-40 Krag, 303 Brit. etc. Is there any really significant thing gained from an AI today on things like 270, 280, etc?????? I see 50-100 fps as the gain, often with load data that neglects a higher pressure. |
Replies:
Posted By: CB900F
Date Posted: 24 June 2016 at 13:09
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BEAR;
If I remember correctly, Klallen here had a .280 Remington A.I. & is happy with it. You might see if he'll weigh in on the subject. 900F ------------- Birth certificate!? He don't need no steenkink birth certificate!! |
Posted By: Wing master
Date Posted: 24 June 2016 at 18:43
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I think it depends on the cartridge. I think it would be
worth the trouble to AI a .257 Roberts or a .280. I have also read that you can expect some accuracy gain. But I don't really see why that would happen. Wing master ------------- I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on. |
Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 27 June 2016 at 03:19
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I have no knowledge to offer on this subject..but I do have P.O.'s two book set on his working with his A.I. cartridges. Haven't dusted them off for some time now. Bear you might be on the right track as now we have much more choices in powders (for one example look at Hornadys offerings of low recoil type rounds & more energy type rounds they offer with the powder used being the major player in performance) which may negate the need for the A.I. brass in common cartridges. Modern bullets too may enter in the mix for getting "more" from standard cartridge cases. ------------- Irish Bird Dog NRA Life/Endowment 2nd Amendment Supporter |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 27 June 2016 at 06:31
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I'm a big fan of PO and read and reread his volumes.
really radical cartridges like 303 brit, and 30-40 Krag could benefit from increased capacity by blowing out the bodies. Unfortunately most rifles in these cartridges, are 100 years old and can't take the pressure of the regular cartridge load hot. Some exceptions: Ruger #3 and #1, My Ruger 30-40 Krag is giving me '06 factory velocity with book max loads. Going to a 30-40 Krag improved would get me to 300 h&h factory velocity easily. But i'm not going to risk my sub MOA accuracy, for 150 fps. Still see a lot of false positives about improving the 243, 244, 280, and 270. But these would have to be a expense of much higher pressure. And with those much higher pressure in the original cartridge I believe the difference would be less than 50-75 fps. |
Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 27 June 2016 at 06:49
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The 6mm rem does not gain much either ------------- Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box |
Posted By: CB900F
Date Posted: 27 June 2016 at 10:50
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Fella's;
Well, for all practical purposes, the 6mm Remington is an Ackley Improved .243 Winchester. Two different parent cases & all that, but the performance gain from the .243 to the 6mm is very similar to what's typically seen when one A.I.'s a cartridge. 900F ------------- Birth certificate!? He don't need no steenkink birth certificate!! |
Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 27 June 2016 at 12:59
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I've had two improved, 22-250 and 243, the main advantage was reduced case stretch. You could run them a bit hotter, mainly because of reduced bolt thrust, case gripped chamber wall better, because of reduced taper. Down side, throats burned out faster, because of extra powder required and you got sticky extraction, because of reduced case taper.
I have several newer chamberings, that were designed using the "improved" principle, from the start, decreased taper and sharper shoulder angle. ------------- Want to stop Drunk Drivers, from Killing Sober Drivers? Ban Sober Drivers from Driving. That's how Gun Control Works. NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF |
Posted By: stinky
Date Posted: 07 July 2016 at 07:16
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I have read where cartridges like the 30-30 (specifically), .303 & .30-40, that do not have a lot of case volume, and are relatively low pressure and lots of body taper, gain the most. They get a well need volume increase and pressure goes down...because of the reduced taper, the case, during the firing sequence, in supported in more of a right angle to the bore axis. The closer you are to the bore axis, the more rearward thrust you have. The closer you are to a right angle to the bore axis, the thrust is more a against the 90 deg walls on the chamber, and not towards the bolt face. I don't remember the numbers, but supposedly, in a .30-30AI...for the same pressure, there is a good fps increase. I don't know why a .280 would need anymore fps. ------------- John 14:6 |
Posted By: jsgbearpaws1
Date Posted: 07 July 2016 at 08:41
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Had the 22-250 Imp., what a shooter! Lost it in a divorce......really miss that gun! And yes, they are a bit sticky with the straight case. Fire formed new brass was never an issue, but the reloaded brass...just didn't like to eject as smoothly. That was 16 years ago and I still miss it dearly. Avg. group with the 54gr. Sierra matchkings was 2.14" at 400yds. 5 shot. Wood stocked, Rem. BDL, Tuned, squared, and hand-lapped, with a Jewell trigger and a Douglas precision barrel. Had a nice 6 x 18 Elite with the dot on it. Simple and sweet. ------------- ...oh yeah! thats gonna hurt! |
Posted By: VarmintGuy
Date Posted: 15 July 2016 at 16:01
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Bear: Yes a shooter/Hunter does gain velocity with Ackley
Improved cartridges and that has various benefits in and of itself. A shooter/Hunter also gains in brass life and in my experience also gains in less standard deviation in velocity from shot to shot between Ackley Improved cartridges and "un-improved" cartridges of similar velocities. I enjoyed my Ackley Improved cartridges but haven't had one made in about a decade now. Why? Because of initial expense - most notably in having ANY custom, barrel, Rifle, action, chambering job put together, anymore. My last Ackley Improved custom Rifle I had made was in 6mm Remington Ackley Improved and it is a superb Rifle with superb accuracy and apparently infinite brass life. The cost of that build and the dies still is fresh in my mind. And that memory is not a pleasant one. Anymore I look for "standard" and new calibers in factory offerings - I've been there and done that with Ackley Improved customs. Ever try to get your money back out of a "custom/Ackley Improved" Rifle? I have, and I have seen it attempted many more times! You will suffer a larger percentage of loss of initial investment with an Ackley Improved Rifle than if you had simply bought a factory Rifle used it carefully then re- sold it! Custom Rifles in custom calibers were a several decades long "fad" for me - I'm over it now. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy |
Posted By: tj3006
Date Posted: 22 July 2016 at 11:26
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I have a .257 Roberts AI.
The only real improvement is case life. And Who cares about that. With all the money i have spent on Rifles and reloading, 50 new brass every year or two is nothing...tj3006 ------------- Freedom 1st tj3006 |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 27 July 2016 at 07:17
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Varmint sounds like a great rifle. unfortunately your
new barrel was chambered originally for the improved cartridge. Might have shot as good or better in 6mm Rem. Would be nice to see someone take standard rifle and work up the most accurate load, then ream to IMPROVED, and then check accuracy velocity etc. Every improved cartridge has a small powder increase. If loaded the same as the original non-improved cartridge, it must shoot slower as it has more volume that needs pressurized. So we all more powder and that gets it back up to standard. then we can load more powder and THIS IS WHERE THE QUESTION IS. Is there a significant increase in velocity BEFORE we get to a higher pressure than factory? In the case of the Roberts, I suspect the velocity is only significantly increase when comparied to low pressure Roberts loads. I just wonder with a 257 Robert at P+ pressure compared to the 257 Robert Improved at the same P+ pressure; would there be a significant increase in velocity? |
Posted By: tj3006
Date Posted: 31 July 2016 at 12:51
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Since Bear brought it up !
I would consider trading or selling my .257 Roberts AI with dies formed brass and the works. Its, an FN side safety action, with a 25 inch Douglas barrel. It could easily be rechamerd to 257 weatherby if someone wanted. It probably has 200 rounds through it. Don't have any thing in mind but i am a .308 guy these days ...tj3006 ------------- Freedom 1st tj3006 |
Posted By: RaySendero
Date Posted: 21 June 2017 at 14:35
BEAR, My rule-of-thumb has been that "to improve on a cartridge I already have, I want a 500 fps increase in velocity with the same bullet wt. or a 50% increase in bullet wt. at the same velocity". Thus I never invested in an AI cartridges. However, I did some homework on AIs - Just curious. Found some cartridges would benefit more from AIing much more than others. Suggest you do more homework yourself and evaluate what you really need/want. Me, I just find a cartridge that would provide more ump that the AIs and buy/build a new rifle for it. PS: Also found its much more fun to do a new rifle than it is to do a new cartridge!!! ------------- Ray |
BEAR wrote:Posted By: BEARHUNTER
Date Posted: 02 July 2017 at 14:07
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I like this topic. Have a buddy
at work who has a 35 Whelen AI that he wants to get rid of. Don't even know what action it's built on. But the price is right |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 03 July 2017 at 00:18
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Nice to see you post Bearhunter.
The 35 Whelen is in itself a great cartridge, AI certainly doesn't hurt. Lots of AI in varmint cartridges (like 22-250AI) have barrels that have been shot out. Seems guys that want to push the velocity also like ultra HOT loads. But I doubt many people will ever shoot out a 35 Whelen AI. The 35 W AI is a real thumper, great for BIG bears and Elk. If it is a bargain...go for it. I've found IF I pass on a bargain, I'll soon regret it. |
Posted By: garou_22
Date Posted: 31 August 2017 at 15:29
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I personally don't have any experience with AI cartridges. That said, I have spoke with a fella who swears by them, specifically the .223 AI with a modified twist rate to boot. I don't recall the particulars of his fiddling, just the stories of flipping prairie dogs 10-15 feet in the air at ranges of 1000yds and more. The fella I speak of is the owner/operator of Young's Gunsmithing in Tracy, MT. And while I'm not convinced of his adherence to Barnes Bullets, the rest I'm willing to believe. ------------- Motorcycles, Firearms, and an ex-wife: What more does a guy need? |
Posted By: TasunkaWitko
Date Posted: 31 August 2017 at 16:52
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I know the place - my wife grew up in Tracy ~ lots of great folks out there, and really, really good home-cooking.... ------------- TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana  Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen |
Posted By: Dan Carey
Date Posted: 18 December 2017 at 21:43
If you want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. I have several AI's and love'em. |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 19 December 2017 at 01:16
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Nice to see you posting Dan. What AI cartridges do you have?
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Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 19 December 2017 at 11:38
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Most the "AI" improved loads boost the speed a LOT. Except the 6mm rem the change is smaller then the other "Varmint" rounds. To get a big jump I need to go with a 6mm/06, which I am going to do when I "Toast" the barrel I have. ------------- Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box |
Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 13:17
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Dang here is an old post that could be reignited. Any Information on my 8 MM rem mag? It looks like an AI improved 375 H&H necked down now. Taper taken out It doesn't have a 40* shoulder I don't think but to head spaces off the belt anyway right? To get much improvement I would have to go with 8 MM RUM maybe. But that's more then just a reaming. I think that's a 404 Jeffrey case, No Belt. Even with that it's around a 100 fps increase, and way more powder. I would guess more recoil too.But a 220 gr bullet going 3200 fps would be cool too. Right now Mine is around 3100. I got a new Bayonet( other one stopped working for what ever reason) for the speedometer so Next time I'm out I'll find out for sure. The 200's should be around 3200... ------------- Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 13:33
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The base of the RUM is exactly the same as the base of you 8 rem mag. easy ream job. But only 100 fps increse????????? My 416 case is eating me out of powder. ------------- “ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.” |
Posted By: MapleHill
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 13:42
| D, when I was at Hart barrel talking to Jim and Jerry Hart I almost had them make my rifle a 260AI or 7-08AI. But after alot of research and talking to the guys there I would only gain 50fps on the outside. That is not enough gain to outweight the pain of fireforming brass. The AI lessen the body taper and increase the shoulder angle. So in and of that, you can run into issues feeding from the magazine to the chamber. I discussed this at lengths with the Hart crew as well. One of the main reasons many of the cartridges have the 20ish* shoulder and body taper is to feed and extract reliable in a number of different action designs, i.e. military firearms. Now for us in the hunting world it comes in to play, if not to the level of life and death, at least not our death, but it is a factor. The sharp angle of the shoulder make the transfer from magazine to chamber a harder push from the bolt handle. From what I've read you gain a significant (noticeable in performance) increase in 22/250, 257Rob and 280 most notably. The first 2 are easy to figure, they are heavily tapered cases, the 280 is not as tapered, but the sharper shoulder add increase in usable powder capacity. I write this without a single AI chambered rifle in my safe. The RUMs I do have experience with. I had (HAD) a 7mm and 338 RUM. They both shot well and recoil was not as fierce as I would have thought. They were both top of the line Rem 700 XCRs. With the 7mm when you got towards the top loads you had to add a lot of powder to see even a little increase in velocity. IIRC, a 1 or 2gr increase in powder would not change my velocity readings at all, it seemed like you needed to get towards 5gr to see it jump and then, not much. The 338 was better, IMHO the 338RUM had a real use in North American big game hunting. The 7mm didn't give you much practical advantage over the 7RM or 7WM as you can wring out a good performing load with 24" barrels out of either the Rem mag or Weatherby. I refuse to carry any more weight than I have to while hunting so I have swore off 26" barrels thus the RUMs are gone. I took the 7mm to a horseback trip to Idaho...never again. I've never been able to see an animal die and deader than dead when hit with a 3000fps 7mm or a 3200fps 7mm. The difference of 200fps is on me, not the rifle. The 8mmMag is very close to 338 RUM performance...don't change it, you'll be burning more powder for 50-75fps. |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 09:08
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Maple + 1. ------------- “ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.” |
Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 09:15
8 mm Rem mag 375 h&h case capacity is a meager 99 gr h2o Bear I think the "RUM" cases are from a 404 not the 375 h&h. 110.2 gr h2o https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Remington_Ultra_Magnum" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Remington_Ultra_Magnum Still little difference. On the other hand, An 8mm Weatherby Mag would be on a 378 case, that one could be fun... 133 gr H2O   ------------- Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box |
Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 09:32
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Sorry Bear I misread your post. You said Base is the same , it is, I read it as Based. I stand corrected. I did check at one point and found an 8 mm RUM, from a 8 mm Rem Mag is just a ream job. BUT It came with 220 brass and I now have 420 to costly to change now for 100 FPS. I do wish it had a 26" barrel.
 ------------- Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 09:46
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Yep, 404 all right. fits you rifle perfectly. same head diameter; one reamer and a few turns...bingo. The only BIG 8mm I played with was the 8x68S which with a 200 grain bullet gave just 3000fps. it was a M-S with double set triggers, beautiful rifle. Cartridge designed in 1930 germany. my double rifle is a measly 8x57 JRS. I've got some biggies, 300 RUM, 416, couple of Weatherbys. And I've shot 470, 460 Weatherby (the mother of everything big). For the massive amount of powder they eat, they seldom give more than 150-250 fps more. and that little bit is eated up in the firsst 50-70 yards. So it really means you have the same killing power for and extra 50-70 yards. I can crawl that far. Big cartridges are only an advantage IF they shoot a heavier bullet.
------------- “ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.” |
Posted By: RaySendero
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 12:03
PS: what's with the larger print? ------------- Ray |
Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 12:44
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I'm really hard of hearing So I have to talk loud. Sorry, just turn the volume down when I'm talking.  ------------- Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box |
Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 13:51
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Actually, my eyes are bad. prefer all caps, extra large.
------------- “ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.” |
Posted By: MapleHill
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 14:44
Bear +1!! D and I have gone back and forth on this many times. I like the energy you get with the heavy(er) bullets.
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Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 15:12
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Most folks buy heavy magnums and then load light bullet to reduce recoil. Funny thing, 223 guys want to adopt heavier bullts too get some energy???? ------------- “ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.” |
Posted By: windywales
Date Posted: 14 June 2020 at 14:22
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I think "improved" is way too generic a moniker. I was told I could go to 25-35AI or Tomcat when I got my shot-out 22 Hipower reamed out and rechambered to 25-35, and get close to a 257 Roberts in performance. Well, the performance I was interested in didn't include more muzzle blast noise and recoil--and I already had a 257 Roberts. When I built the Roberts, I was told I could make it a 25-06 if I wanted to. I didn't want to! If "improved" means more noise, more recoil, more speed, and more energy it makes it a cartridge I could have had and didn't want, so it's not "improved" to me. Maybe the 32 Win Special is an "improved" 32-40; I've never had one (and I've had several, I do like that cartridge) that could match the AVERAGE 32-40 for accuracy. Accuracy-wise, it's not "improved". I'm not knocking you recoil junkies; I used to be one, and I bought rifles in calibers that "outperformed" many of the above--but my idea of a sweet rifle is one that behaves itself while doing the job it was designed for really well. windy sonny, whar I growed up, "magnum" wuz anuther wurd fer "lousy hunter" ------------- Whar i growed up "magnum" wuz anuther wurd fer "lousy hunter" |
Posted By: North Logan
Date Posted: 28 December 2023 at 16:45
There's never been anything about the A.I. ctgs to get me interested.  -------------   "COLTS & PONY CARS"...
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Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 28 December 2023 at 18:50
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Few wildcats are better. Since there are few book data for them, most load to P++ levels to gat anything faster. Regular m non AI will be about the same if loaded to P++ 9 levels. ------------- “ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.” |
Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 29 December 2023 at 08:20
It stops case stretch, as much as anything else. ------------- Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box |
Posted By: MapleHill
Date Posted: 31 December 2023 at 16:15
| I have Ackley's books, the real old ones my Gramps had. PO Ackley was from an area not far from my old home in NY. Grampa and he corresponded some back in the 50s-60s. PO was way ahead of his time. If you can find them, his books are a wealth of information. I said this a few years ago, there are a few cartridges that really shine with the improvement, 22-250, 257 and 280. The 308 family do not gain much due to there original design. |