i have IMR 4064, IMR 4831, RL15 and varget; i can get IMR 4895 if needed.

several different brands of brass, separated, including winchester, PMC, Lake City, federal and i think remington. - even have maybe 20 herters.

an ample supply of CCI primers (am holding on to 200 CCI BR primers for use when i find "the load").

As for bullets, I am looking primarily at 150grn sierra pro hunters and 165grn sierra gamekings.

CH "H" press, lee deluxe collet die set, lee factory crimp die and lee auto prime make up the primary equipment - cases will be prepped by with trimming and chamfering following sizing. i don't have a flash hole deburring tool or primer pocket uniformer - may have to sneak a couple of things into the shopping cart next time we are in great falls?

will consult manuals (lyman, hornady and lee plus the "load book" with data from everyone) tonight for starting loads - suggestions will be welcomed!

here's what i have for recommended starting loads (except where noted) from my sources (hornady, lee, lyman and the load book):

hornady - 150g

• varget - 38.2g
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 40.0g
• RL15 - 40.1g
• I4895 - 39.5g

hornady - 165g

• varget - 37.1g
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - n/a
• RL15 - 38.8g
• I4895 - 40.0g

nosler (loadbook) - 150g

• varget - n/a
• I4831 - 48.0g
• I4064 - 44.0g
• RL15 - 42.0g
• I4895 - 40.5g

nosler (loadbook) - 165g

• varget - n/a
• I4831 - 47.0g
• I4064 - 40.5g
• RL15 - 40.0g
• I4895 - 39.0g

sierra (loadbook) - 150g

• varget - 41.4g
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 40.7g
• RL15 - 42.5g
• I4895 - 41.1g

sierra (loadbook) - 165g

• varget - 40.0g
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 39.2g
• RL15 - 39.9g
• I4895 - 39.5g

speer (loadbook) - 150g

• varget - 43.0g
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 43.0g
• RL15 - 45.0g
• I4895 - 41.0g

speer (loadbook) - 165g

• varget - n/a
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 41.0g
• RL15 - 43.0g
• I4895 - 39.0g

lee - 150g

• varget - 44.0g
• I4831 - 46.0g
• I4064 - 42.3g
• RL15 - 37.1g
• I4895 - 42.1g

lee - 165g

• varget - 42.0g
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 40.7g
• RL15 - 36.5g
• I4895 - 40.0g

lyman - 150g

• varget - n/a
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 43.0g
• RL15 - 41.0g
• I4895 - 40.0g

lyman - 165g

• varget - n/a
• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 39.1g
• RL15 - 41.0g
• I4895 - 38.0g

hogdon (loadbook) - 150g (max load?)

• varget - 44.0g

hogdon (loadbook)- 165g (max load?)

• varget - 42.0g

alliant (loadbook) - 150g (max load?)

• RL15 - 46.3

alliant (loadbook) - 165g (max load?)

• RL15 - n/a

IMR - 150g (max loads?)

• I4831 - n/a
• I4064 - 46.0g (c)
• I4895 - 44.5g

IMR - (loadbook) - 165g

• no loads given

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

from this research, i can pretty much rule out I4831; varget is missing from some sources, but i suspect that has more to do with the fact that it seems to be a relatively new powder rather than a reflection on its performance.

I4064 came out as the powder most specifically recommended, but I4895 was mentioned often as the most consistent. varget and RL15 had a habit of placing well near the top of every chart.

i think i will start with 150g bullets first (sierra pro-hunter) and once that is done move to the 165s (sierra gameking).

so, with all of the different starting loads for each powder, what does one do? take an average and start there?

Taz

I have a couple of 308's that I reload for and I have found that Varget works well in them. I don't remember the exact load but I will check if you want me to.  I have tried a number of bullets and have decided that for me the 180gr works the best.

Russ

hey, russ -  yes, please post that load and i will see if i can get it to go, bringing it down 10% as a starting load.

i do have a partial box of 180-grain PSPs (herters) but for my hunting (deer and antelope) i see no reason to use these rare bullets. if i do pick up a box of 180s for an eventual elk hunt, i will definitely give it a try.

I use 43gr 4064 or 45gr 4320 with 150gr sp bullets. Both do about 2600fps. Not real fast but very accurate.

DD

How fast is the twist on your herter's mj9 in .308, you may need faster than 1/11 for 180s,  I had a 1/11" savage and unless I pushed it hard, it didn't like anything above 155s.  If you find you have problems with 165 or 180s, you could have slow twist barrel and find it likes 150s best.

I have used IMR 4320 and IMR4895 (a little faster powder)for 125 BT and 130 sp 50-52gr (.308 seems to like compressed loads) gave better than 3,100 fps, good antelope/deer load,  I also loaded some youth loads, good for plinking or varmints. 

RC

moose - i'll definitely be giving R15 a try!

robert - i am not sure of the twist on my barrel - i do know that rob measured it a few years ago, but i can't remember for sure what it was - i want to say 1:12, but am not certain. what i do know for sure is that the ebst accuracy so far with this rifle has been with 180-grain hornady flat-based bullets (0.6 of an inch inch), but i am hoping to find a load that is as accurate or possibly even better with 150s.

got a slight hang-up in the development for now (see my post titled " http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16584&PN=1&TPN=1 - problem with lee factory crimp die ") but hope to have it resoved soon. in the meantime, i might run a test on some starting loads sans crimp and use them as a "control group" for comparison with crimped dies once the problem is resolved.

  Heres my favorite  load for most of my .308's

 IMR mailto:4895@44.0 - 4895@44.0 gr  150gr Hornady's  Win. WLR primer

 Jerrs rifle's best and most favorite.

  mailto:W748@49.4 - W748@49.4 gr 150 gr GK  WLR primer

 Favorite 165gr GK load

  mailto:AA2495@45 - AA2495@45 gr   WLR primer

The new standard twist for .308 is 1/10", alot of the older ones had 1/11" to 1/12".  I have a 1/9" 22" heavy barrel in .308 to put on savage, I have two .243 barrels to burn out first though, the one on it is almost ready, it's opened up to right at 1", when it gets to two, I'll trade it out.

RC

Taz

I looked up the load I have been using and it is 45 grains of Varget behind a 180 grain bullet. I know most people use lighter bullets (150 or 165 grain) but most of the time we hunt elk and I have found the 180 works much better on elk than the 150 or 165. It is amazing how effective this load is on everything. My wife has taken antelope, deer and elk all with the same load. My brother in law shoots the same load and he has taken 3 elk in 4 years with it. It is one of those loads that just work no matter what.

Good luck

Russ

russ - ii am finding that my rifle seems to love heavier bullets. i loaded up some 170-grain flat .30/30 bullets just for the heck of it and they worked very well with a heck of a punch.

to me, anything voer 165 (frankly 155) is jsut too damn heavy, but with accuracy like this maybe i need to consider it.

I understand and remember my "perfect deer cartridge" is the 260 Remington with a 129 gr.  But with the bullet weight higher you need a bullet that will open up at a reasonable velocity in a 14-18 inch thin skinned animal.   that is why the 170 flat nose is so great in 30 caliber.  I've helped so many guy track deer wounded with the 180 '06, they looked like 30 cal in 30 cal out. 

17MAR2009 - first "official" loads

• cartridge - .308 winchester
• quantity - 20
• brass - pmc
• primer - cci 200 lr
• bullet - sierra pro hunter pspfb - 150 grains - bc .3940
• coal - 2.800

dies used

• lee collet neck sizing die
• lee dead-length seating die (no crimp)

loads

• a) varget - 42.5g - 3.1cc - estimated velocity 2773fps (lee) - 5 cartridges
• b) rl15 - 39.6g - 2.8cc - estimated velocity 2500(?)fps (lee) - 5 cartridges
• c) imr 4064 - 41.6g - 3.1cc - estimated velocity 2682fps (lee) - 5 cartridges loaded
• d) imr 4831 - 42.2g - 3.1cc - estimated  velocity 2265fps (lee) - 5 cartridges loaded

1. deprimed cases
2. cleaned cases
3. neck-sized cases
4. trimmed all cases (none required this time)
5. chamfered all cases (outside, then inside)
6. brushed case necks
7. primed cases
8. charged cases as per data above
9. seated bullets (no crimp this time)
10. inspected and boxed cases

well, there they are - everything is identical except the four loads. i plan to take the two best performers and tweak them as needed - factory crimp, seating depths, work up charges etc.

i know that the estimated velocities are about as reliable as reading tea leaves on a full moon with a black cat running under a ladder over a broken mirror on friday the 13th, but i needed something and these are what the book gave me. the one for RL15 is a real wild guess based on where it fell between two other loads. i don't expect actual velocities to be as they are above, but since i have no chronograph, i'll probably never miss the difference.

i have absolutely no faith in the imr 4831 load, but i had the powder on the shelf and there was some data, so i tossed it in. i really need to get some imr4895 on my next payday.

ran these loads through point blank and got some intersting things for the varget and the 4064. those interested can take a look:

• /forum/uploads/TasunkaWitko/2009-03-18_003447_308_alpha.txt - 2009-03-18_003447_308_alpha.txt
• /forum/uploads/TasunkaWitko/2009-03-18_003518_308_bravo.txt - 2009-03-18_003518_308_bravo.txt
• /forum/uploads/TasunkaWitko/2009-03-18_003549_308_charlie.txt - 2009-03-18_003549_308_charlie.txt
• /forum/uploads/TasunkaWitko/2009-03-18_003559_308_delta.txt - 2009-03-18_003559_308_delta.txt

i will be out of town the next three days, but am taking my rifle and this ammo in the hopes that an opportunity might come along to test this ammunition, either in the helena area or the great falls area. if not, i will try it at home this weekend. i have no rifle vise and am a bit "shaky", so i am not sure if 100-yard evaluations will be a good idea at these early stages, when i want to know what this load will do regardless of my abilities; still, at the same time, 25- or 50-yard evaluations seem like a waste of time.

that is all for now - comments or opinions would be appreciated!

I don't think short yardage work is a waste of time. If you are working with iron sites or low power scopes I think it is a must. Since you don't have a lead sled or fancy rest it is much easier to call a pulled shot at short range. If you are the cause and not the load you may never know it at longer ranges. This is not to say long range work isn't needed. Short range can more easily weed out the lackluster performing loads.  I understand that some long target bullets take some time to stabilize but you will seldom if ever see a load that will group at 200 yards and not at 50yds.

DD

"....some long target bullets take some time to stabilize ". 

Got to disagree with this.  I see a lot of people saying that they shoot 3' groups at 100 yards and then the bullet stablizes to a 2" group at 200 yards.  Just can't happen...never.

You might shoot a 2" group at 100 yards, and that has to be at least 4" at 200 yards.  And the usual is it will be 5" at 200 yards with wind, etc.

Ahh. The Bullsh^t flag has been thrown at me. I retract my statement."....some long target bullets take some time to stabilize ".  It's been a long time since I was up to speed on my college physics and I sometimes mix up my aviation related aerodynamics which correlate but not always exactly to the gyroscopic stability of projectiles. Here's my take on it. The preccessional destabilization of a longer heavier bullet caused by gyroscopic and aerodynamic forces is more likely to be dampend out by it's greater inertia than a shorter lighter bullet. The longer one will just take more time and distance to do it. Where I've seen this isn't really group size but group location. At 25yds the group my be at the 4 o'clock position on the target and at 200yds the group may be at 10 o'clock. My deduction and that's all it is. Is that while the bullet is rotating around it's axis it is also rotating around the axis of the bore but at a much slower rate. This effect has been noticed by me more with long for caliber bullets. In my defense I never claimed larger groups shrinking to smaller at longer ranges. I'll shut up now.

DD

being that my main hunting and shooting target is with a 308 encore i have found two powders i use which are varget and 4350 both have produced sub .5" moa. i have found that for hunting deer and smaller game or black bear i use the 150 speer 150 spbt. i played with the loads but found my best bet was at the highest load level or one grain below. i prefer to keep my loads to myself as i know each rifle will have different loads that will work for them. if you would like the loads just give me a heads up and i will get the loads for you/. varget and imr 4350 were made for the 308 caliber

hope this helps

rob k

hey guys -

this might sound pathetic, but i still need to evaluate those laods i came up with back in frreakin' MARCH! after hunting season i am planning some weekend trips to the range as well as some laoding. the kids are pretty excited about shooting and loading right now and this is a good opportunity to do some development.

robk - thanks for the offer - i'll see how these loads go and will get back to you ~

ron

Well Taz

Of course this load was developed for my rifle, and may not do crap in your. But in my Rem 788

Wincherster Brass

Federal primer

42gr IMR4064

165gr Nosler Balistic Tip, or Barnes X

This load works very well in mine!

DD I agree with your later statement.  The rotational group at various ranges is a fact, I don't think it is as wide as 4".

I hear people say my gun shoots 2 inches at 100 yards, and the same rifle shoots 1.5 inches at 200 yards because of the bullet stabilizing.  Physically impossible, but the gun writers keep repeatedly  writing it, and it is all over the internet.

Tas.....the Lake City Brass is military and most likely will have thicker case walls ie less powder capacity than commercial brass......not a real issue just an FYI but a military primer is crimped in place and that primer pocket usually needs to be de-crimped to fit primers back in easily. 

Out of the past ie HISTORY: I have an old loading "tool" called a "Powley Computer" that is a cardboard slide rule type gizmo that you can set for bullet wt, bullet dia. maybe the velocity you want etc  (ain't used it in years, can't remember exactly what is entered into the data slides) but it helps find a starter powder for your load if you follow the instructions just to get you on the right track. Only thing is it is obsolete now cuz of so many newer powders since it was designed but would still work for the powders of its time. I think the guy who designed it was Homer Powley & musta been a ballistician or some such thing.  Wonder if anyone else remembers about that tool.  Today there must be computerized programs to use for the same info.  Check with the powder companies and bullet makers.

IBD, yep remember the Powley Calculator...and I have one!

He made other calculators and I have some of those also.  I undestand his wifle had a web site with some of that stuff.  But is is a handly tool, just have to calibrate it with burn rates, and use it AS A GUIDE.