in defence of the .30-30

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   i pity the .30-30 and the condescending comments that it constantly receives, reducing it to a quaint little toy-cartridge that is just barely an adequate chambering for hunting. actually, i think that the .30-30 is one of the 2-or-3 best deer cartridges of all-time. age has nothing to do with it at all, and there really isn't any place that it needs improvement, in my opinion.

considering that the majority of deer are shot within 200 yards, it has more than enough pepper to penetrate and kill.
considering that .30 cal makes the optimum-sized hole in the deer, it's a given that the hole will not be too big or too small, as long as it is in the kill zone.
considering that it is travelling at lower velocities, the blunt nose assures proper and consistent expansion.
considering the mild recoil, it is easily one of the easiest rifles to shoot accurately.
arguments have been made about it's brush-bust capabilities. there is much evidence supporting both sides. i remain undecided about those capabilities, but even if the bullets DO deflect, they certainly don't deflect any more than any other bullet. 
i won't say that evolution of the .30 caliber peaked with the ,30-30 (i believe that it actually reached it's zenith with the .30-06), but i will say that, for the majority of deer-killing scenarios, AND for the majority of hunters, it certainly cannot be improved upon. faster, flatter-shooting rifles will extend the range of modern rifles, as well as boost the raw power provided in terminal performance, but this is unnecessary in MOST situations, speaking strictly of deer-sized game in their most-common habitat.
of course, that won't stop me from buying other rifles that work just as well, or even "better!"

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TasunkaWitko Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Administrator aka The Gipper Joined: 10 June 2003 Location: Chinook Montana Status: Offline Points: 14753	Topic: in defence of the .30-30 Posted: 05 July 2003 at 17:10
	i pity the .30-30 and the condescending comments that it constantly receives, reducing it to a quaint little toy-cartridge that is just barely an adequate chambering for hunting. actually, i think that the .30-30 is one of the 2-or-3 best deer cartridges of all-time. age has nothing to do with it at all, and there really isn't any place that it needs improvement, in my opinion. considering that the majority of deer are shot within 200 yards, it has more than enough pepper to penetrate and kill. considering that .30 cal makes the optimum-sized hole in the deer, it's a given that the hole will not be too big or too small, as long as it is in the kill zone. considering that it is travelling at lower velocities, the blunt nose assures proper and consistent expansion. considering the mild recoil, it is easily one of the easiest rifles to shoot accurately. arguments have been made about it's brush-bust capabilities. there is much evidence supporting both sides. i remain undecided about those capabilities, but even if the bullets DO deflect, they certainly don't deflect any more than any other bullet. i won't say that evolution of the .30 caliber peaked with the ,30-30 (i believe that it actually reached it's zenith with the .30-06), but i will say that, for the majority of deer-killing scenarios, AND for the majority of hunters, it certainly cannot be improved upon. faster, flatter-shooting rifles will extend the range of modern rifles, as well as boost the raw power provided in terminal performance, but this is unnecessary in MOST situations, speaking strictly of deer-sized game in their most-common habitat. of course, that won't stop me from buying other rifles that work just as well, or even "better!"
	TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen

klallen Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby The RockChucker Joined: 10 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2331	Posted: 05 July 2003 at 18:15
	I don't know, TAS. I'm kinda torn here. I agree with a lot of what folks like you have said in support of the .30-30. And I can see where others criticize the .30-30 cause is just to slow for any real usefulness in their longer range situations. Bottom line is, I have a lot of respect for the .30-30 cause it's one of the cartridges I was taught on and raised with, but I quickly learned the limitations. Hunting the river bottoms, as I did in the younger days, these limitations never came back to bite me in the back-side. However, things change and I did eventually get bite. For me, the .30-30 is one of those "oh shit" cartridges (pardon the language). My .307's in the same category. Great cartridges with power to spare at close range. They will most certainly function wonderfully 60, 65 maybe even 70% of the time, at ranges of shot that I see nowadays. The other 30% - 35% of the time, my Mulie or Antelope just aren't gonna allow any closer a shot then 275+. Now, I know for a fact if I can somehow get closer, I've plenty of gun for the task. But that's little comfort when confronted with a field full of 3" stubble for cover. You're basically hung out to dry. If you're holding the appropriate cartridge, no problem. If you're holding a rifle chambered in one of these wonderful cartridges (.30-30, .307, etc.), all you're left thinking is "oh shit, I have absolutely no possible shot at this trophy buck". It's happened to me once, way back when we were making the transition from river bottom to open plains hunting. It was the sickest feeling. I don't mind not getting an animal if he gives me a slip and outsmarts me, but when I enter the field totally unprepared and I fail because of it, that makes me sick. I swore I would never enter my hunting arena unprepared again. And I have not. I have committed to taking the .307 out hunting this year. I'm hoping to get some river bottom work in for it. Possibly from stands. But if it goes to the open fields, there will be a back-up rifle taken just for an occasion as mentioned above. By the percentages, there's a real good chance the .307 will get bloodied but I'm still gonna be prepared for the shots it just can't make. I can't say that the .30-30 isn't one of the top three for cartridges for most folks, but for my purposes, I'd be very generous if I were to put on a top ten list of useful deer cartridges. >> klallen

Triggerguard Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby aka The San Antonio Terminator Joined: 13 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2212	Posted: 05 July 2003 at 18:21
	A fine speech! However, you don't need to convince the multitudes that know and love the "carbina treinta". I think RCBS still lists the .30/30 in the top five selling reloading dies every year, and the big three plus import ammunition producers always have jillions of rounds of ammunition available. SOMEBODY out there is buying a buttload of .30/30 rifles, ammunition, and components. You will likewise NEVER convince the cartridge snobs out there that the lowly .30/30 is fit to be mentioned in the same breath as their beloved .300 Winchester Mag, or Remington's "Big 7". All the .30/30 does is keep killing game effiently at moderate ranges, without excessive muzzle blast, recoil, or cost.
	"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke

macca Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby AKA The Thunder From DownUnder Joined: 10 June 2003 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1149	Posted: 05 July 2003 at 19:26
	Lovely round for pigs in the scrub.I don't think any bullets really buck the brush except FMJ's.I have sat with a bunch of shooters with various calibers and loads and tried to fire through scrub at targets.It makes for interesting results.Try it some time with your pet loads. The 30-30 does what it was designed for no more no less.It wouldn,t be the first rifle I grab for deer but it wouldn"t be the last either.God I love rifles,there is always something to talk about.Macca
	don't let the bastards grind you down.

TasunkaWitko Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Administrator aka The Gipper Joined: 10 June 2003 Location: Chinook Montana Status: Offline Points: 14753	Posted: 05 July 2003 at 19:53
	korey - your post was the perfect reply to mine, and together both posts say the same thing: know what it CAN do, and what it CAN'T, and be prepared. this is of course true for any rifle, but since we are talking about the .30-30, it holds doubly true in this case. i believe that geography determines this more than anything, even the species hunted. if i am going where it is strictly riverbottoms and brush, where i know that 200 yards will be a long shot, it is the .30-30 for sure. the moment i step up onto the high plains or the stubble, however, i better have one of my other rifles because, as you said, the deer/antelope/etc. simply aren't going to co-operate if they can sense you. speaking of the .307, how is development going? what bullet have you decided on? i think that last i heard it was to be the nosler partition, but i cannot remember for sure. i currently have 170-grain hornady interlocks waiting to be loaded, but still have a lot of factory remington (150-grn core-lokts) to use up. i went crazy last fall and bought a hundred of the things. they work well, and make good brass! i am expecting good things out of the hornadys, but am still keeping an open mind about other bullets. wish they still made the original silvertips. from what i hear, they were THE ONLY bullet to use with the .30-30....
	TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana Helfen, Wehren, Heilen Die Wahrheit wird euch frei machen

tj3006 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby AKA King Leui VX-III Joined: 16 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2373	Posted: 06 July 2003 at 03:56
	I like the hell out of the 30/30. I, used to buy and sell alot of mode;1894s ,src usualy witha peep site. I never huted with one, always had somthing better. But I killed lots of pop cans at 100 yards. But you said 200. That seems a little long for a 30/30 to me. 150 tops from a carbine. But if your good enough mabye its ok. ...tj3006
	Freedom 1st tj3006

NH_Hunter Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby aka The Kid Joined: 13 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3508	Posted: 06 July 2003 at 04:27
	The .30-30 would be perfect for me, if i didnt have the ability to hunt in places going after game that only the priveleged few can inside my state. I needed elk medicine. The .30-06 is just that. The .30-30 is also not allowed to use where i hunt, so i had few other options. I opted for the aught six because it was there, and it was the best cartridge for my area in a lefty bolt action. I do love ooo sooo much how my Marlin 336A handles, but it is going to be retired. It will probably be my backup gun, with the Winnie 94 as my bad weather gun due to the plastic stock. I will never lose my love of the light recoiling, death ray of the deer woods, but i am able to have better things, so i am putting the .30-30 aside. \ NH_Hunter
	Leverguns make me smile Proud Left Handed Shooter

klallen Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby The RockChucker Joined: 10 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2331	Posted: 06 July 2003 at 11:12
	"speaking of the .307, how is development going" Hi Ron >> Load development hasn't even started yet. The .307's kinda waiting its turn after some other loose ends are wrapped up. I was hoping to use the 150 gr. Ballistic Tips. Work the "one in the chamber, one in the tube" kind of thing. As it turns out, in order to make those long BT's feed properly, it appears as though the bullet would have to be seated so deeply it would take up more powder capacity than I'm willing to sacrifice. So, I'm back to the round and flat nose bullet designs. I have some IMR3031 on the shelf that Speer says is supposed to work well with 150 gr. bullets. I'll probably start there. If I don't like what I see, I'll go heavier. Something like the 170 gr. RN Partition, like you mentioned. With the price of the Hornady Interlocks, I sure wouldn't mind using their 170 gr. FN or 180 gr. RN but ... memories of past experienced just don't go away. Goes without saying I'd have much better luck with them at .307 velocities. We'll see. Hopefully over the next couple weeks I'll finish up the .270 and 7mm RUM. Then I can get the .307 and .416 started up. >> klallen

Foxer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .22 LongRifle Joined: 13 June 2003 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 27	Posted: 07 July 2003 at 18:16
	The 30-30 still has a great place in the outdoorsman's repitoire. The carbine's are a nice light carry that's perfect for a handy shooter when you're out in the summer. Zap a few rabbits, or use it as an animal defense gun if you have to. At close ranges its' still a cougar or black bear killer. Other guns are better, but not if they're so heavy you leave them back at camp. And as a carry along when you're out after grouse, just in case you happen to see a deer. There's a handfull of cases where i'd take it as a first choice deer rifle, but very few. But - in a secondary role it's still a strong contender as a rifle of choice. It's small but powerfull. I'm considering picking up a trapper and doing that ackley conversion. a 150 grain bullet cooking along at 2700 fps is nothing to sneeze at :)

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Posted: 08 July 2003 at 15:38
	G'day guys, have always wanted a .30-30 model 94 and vowed to buy one, but whenever I had the money to buy a new rifle I always bought something else instead. like for instance 12 months ago I wanted a light knockabout rig for pigs goats and the like. A model 94 was what I wanted, walked in the gunshop spent 30 min in there and then walked out with a .... wait for it.... a .458 Win mag!! But now I'm serious, my tax check is due any day and when it comes I am going to buy that .30-30 I promised myself.... Then again those little .44 magnums would be a delight to carry, bigger magazine capacity too.... Damn it, I'm doing it again! Russ.

Triggerguard Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby aka The San Antonio Terminator Joined: 13 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2212	Posted: 08 July 2003 at 16:04
	I saw a Trapper at my gunsmith's shop. Looked behind the counter and saw an itty-bitty carbine in a carbine boot. He had cut down a standard 20 inch barreled carbine to 16 inches, added some high visibility sights, and was ready to rock. He carries it as his truck gun. Gotta have one. Checking the pawnshops for one of the gazzillions made post '64 to ange-eject version. When I find one for the right price ($125 to $150), she's coming home with me and getting a facelift.
	"...A moral compass needs a butt end.Whatever direction France is pointing-towards collaboration with Nazis, accomodation with communists,...we can go the other way with a quiet conscience"-O'Rourke

NH_Hunter Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .416 Rigby aka The Kid Joined: 13 June 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3508	Posted: 09 July 2003 at 00:40
	Hey NOFX, I have heard that the Winnie 94's in .44 Mag dont feed reliably. This may be a bunch of bull, but its what i have heard. I got a Post '64, pre angle eject Winnie and it just needs a little bit of a facelift too! Also got some ejecting problems. I think that may be one of my first projects is gettin that thing back up to mint condition! That 16" barreled carbine sounds pretty sweet to me! Add that to a new stock and a large loop lever with some new sights and your in bidness! NH_Hunter
	Leverguns make me smile Proud Left Handed Shooter

soggyshooter Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List .375 Holland & Holland Magnum Joined: 11 June 2003 Location: Antigua And Barbuda Status: Offline Points: 886	Posted: 09 July 2003 at 12:19
	So you have taken up "preaching to the choir" now! Way to go Mr. Administrator! My 336 goes with me most of the time, be it hiking, hunting, woods loafing, cruising logging roads, plinking, and taming two legged camp varmits!
	There's a village in Kenya that's looking for their idiot...

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest	Posted: 09 July 2003 at 18:33
	G'Day NH_Hunter, I wasn't aware that there was feeding problems with the '94 .44 mag. What a bummer coz otherwise it would be a ripper little pig rig. Russ.