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AI cartridges P.O. Ackley Improved cartidges |
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BEAR
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Topic: AI cartridges P.O. Ackley Improved cartidgesPosted: 08 January 2025 at 11:18 |
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Thought some dialog on this would be interesting.
Just for the record. P.O. Ackley said the 250-3000 AI was thee best AI cartridge that he made. I see no major negatives in any AI cartridges. However there are many that have little positives. One of the best is the 30-40 AI. but few of us have a platform for that round.
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d4570
.416 Rigby
Joined: 27 January 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9961 |
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Posted: 08 January 2025 at 13:39 |
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AI rounds can increase your velocity with more room for powder.
Although you don't HAVE to load max but it's an option. We shoot a lot of AI but some times it make a little harder to feed smoothly. Our biggest reason is it stops most of the case stretch. A 243 and 22/250 seem to be bad for stretching. Just my $.10 worth.
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Wing master
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Posted: 08 January 2025 at 14:20 |
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I don't know that much about Ackleys. Is the only difference the shoulder angle?
I find it interesting that in some cases it helps more than in others. I didn't know it helps with case stretching. That would be a big benefit.
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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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BEAR
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Posted: 08 January 2025 at 14:34 |
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Most AI cartridges keep the neck angle. But some have variations on the neck angle. 250-3000 has a 40 o version that some use.
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d4570
.416 Rigby
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Posted: 08 January 2025 at 16:37 |
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It often times takes the body taper out too.
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BEAR
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Posted: 08 January 2025 at 16:49 |
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Yes, taking the body taper is the main definition of AI improved cartridges. P.O. Ackley did it mainly to reduce bolt thrust, but he also discovered it gave more capacity and on some cases gave less case stretch.
In reality, it worked best on cases that had tapered bodies. So 303 Bristh, 300 H&H, 30-40, 22 Hornet we indead improved. More modern cases have little taper, so AL adds less.
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Wing master
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Posted: 08 January 2025 at 21:30 |
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That makes more sense. I thought changing the neck angle added the case capacity. Taking out the taper would increase the capacity a lot more.
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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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BEAR
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Posted: 09 January 2025 at 09:59 |
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Changing the angle does help increase the capacity, just a very little. But again, Ackley was looking to reduce bolt thrust (the force the brass exerts on the bolt face), and the angle change does that...to a very very small extent.
Making AI improved cartridges also can make for more problems feeding. Remember in P.O. 's day, bolt rifles had "cone breach's/barrels" that were suppose to guide the cartridge into the chamber. I doubt they were needed when the cartridges had lots of body taper, but squaring the barrel face and reducing the case taper can present problems.
Jusst random thoughts |
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“ The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other in opposite directions.”
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Wing master
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Posted: 09 January 2025 at 15:42 |
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That makes sense too.
Is the improvement in velocity enough to make a big difference?
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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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MapleHill
.375 Holland & Holland Magnum
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Posted: 09 January 2025 at 15:55 |
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I have PO Ackley books from the 60s, they are little spiral bound books, very cool. Anyhow, he started, of course, with the military rounds of the time for obvious reasons. He found the 7X57 family had the best results the reason was they were heavier tapered and a lesser neck angle than the 30-06 type. There was a good reason for the original design taper and slight neck angle, ease of feeding from a magazine and more reliable extraction from a military bolt action rifle. However, as the American public became more enamored with sporting arms (Post WW2) the "combat reliability" was less of a necessity. Thus began Mr Ackley's work. The 250AI, 257AI and 280AI became the most popular with the advent of modern slow burning powders. The 308 family had little to gain from the body taper and neck angle because they already were very close to the AI form. When I had Jim Hart build my first rifle, I talked to him about a 260 or 7-08AI. He said you are gonna mess round fire forming brass for very little gain...noted. PO Akley was way ahead of his time with his work. A perfect example of invention out running the technology of the time, the slow burning powders that made the AI shine were not even invented yet, but it seemed he knew someday it would catch up.
Edited by MapleHill - 09 January 2025 at 15:56 |
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BEAR
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Posted: 13 January 2025 at 11:53 |
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One observation on Improved cartridges. there is little reliable reloading data published on them. So I suspect that when people tell you how much velocity they get, it iss with loads with higher than book pressures.
Standard cartridges can get an easy +2-300 fps with higher pressure over loads. many of these older cartridges Like 250-3000, 30-40, 30-30 can get higher velocities with faster powders. And case volume isn't the limiting value. the old 'bok values' were based upon perceived weakness of old rifles. Most reloading manuals list the 30-40 Krag at a max vel 2575 fps. and that is based upon the old Krag Jorgenson rifle. But my 30-40 is a Ruger #3 and the Hodgdon lists a max load of 2800 fps...same case just lots more pressure. And I can get 3000 if I go above book without signs of pressure.. just thoughts.
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Wing master
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Posted: 13 January 2025 at 17:44 |
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I totally understand that faster is better but I usually find the best accuracy at less than max velocity.
How does this work with Ackley cartridges? Does the accuracy node go up the same amount as the max velocity? I have always thought accuracy nodes were caused more by barrel harmonics but I have no reason or experience to make me think this.
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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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d4570
.416 Rigby
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Posted: 13 January 2025 at 18:07 |
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Wings mostly correct about max speed. On a few chambering we get best at max but not normally. With copper bullets we find close to max is better, most traditional bullets we find backing down a bit farther is better. How AI plays in I'm not sure. We have need testing loads in the 7mm57AI with hammer bullets 140's and 145's. Hammer likes to go FAST. BUT powders make a difference too. We run max for standard 7X57 in the AI, we could go higher a bit but the groups do degrade a little. We found a load for it with a tipped 145 Hammer the shoots a .328" group at 100 the same bullet wit a different powder the same speed is mostly 1.3" group.???
Now just a smidgen of a brag. ![]() That is out standing , 200 yards...
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Wing master
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Posted: 13 January 2025 at 23:19 |
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That's an impressive group at 100 yards. That's an exceptionally impressive group at 200.
I'm going to look at Hammer bullets. Where do you get them at? I mostly use Sierra and have had good luck with them but wouldn't mind trying something new.
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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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BEAR
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Posted: 14 January 2025 at 07:49 |
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Yea, but it is 3" away from the bullseye!
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d4570
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Posted: 14 January 2025 at 09:14 |
Bear it's sighted in for a 300 yard pointblank range, so she doesn't have to adjust her point of aim.Wing, you have to order them from "Hammer Bullet" https://hammerbullets.com/ There pricy but you can get 15 pack to test.
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Wing master
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Posted: 14 January 2025 at 17:51 |
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Thanks D.
I just looked at their web site and yes, they are expensive.
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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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d4570
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Posted: 14 January 2025 at 19:21 |
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Wing, We have also find we pick up around an extra 100 feet per second from identical loads with no more presser issues, Maybe even a bit less recoil.
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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box
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Wing master
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Posted: 15 January 2025 at 19:32 |
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I saw on their web site that evidently these bullets have less friction on the inside of the barrel. Maybe that's why they are faster?
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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.
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BEAR
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Posted: 16 January 2025 at 08:04 |
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Correct. that is why they operate at lower pressure; although one can add more power to get them up to SAMMI pressures and increased velocity.
I have over the years been a slave to BC. But in reality, I seldom hunt big game over 400 yards, so BC isn't significant. Copper bullets are longer for a given weight so they do have higher BCs. Loaded copper in 300 Weatherby mag for my bro. Took months of cleaning to get bore clean from copper fouling. does copper fouling hurt accuracy, I don't know. But, I like unfouled, for what ever reason. also longer bullets tend to deflect on brush and bone more than the dense shorter lead bullets. To me copper is a bullet for California use.
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