8X57 Mauser Comparison Debate

The 8X57 cartridge has once again become a topic of discussion with the announcement by Remington of their plans to issue a new Model 700 chambered for this cartridge. Most folks here know that the 8X57 is a cartridge that has far more potential than current American factory ammo allows it. European ammo is of course loaded to achieve top performance in this cartridge. I just did a quick comparison of Federal Ammunition's specs and found that the poor old 8X57 really is taking a beating in Federal's charts; the closest comparison I could find was the .300 Savage 180 grain load which it beat by 10 FPS with a bullet 10 grains lighter.

 Also of academic interest was:

 The old .32 Winchester Special was only 110 FPS slower with the same 170 grain bullet weight! 

The 7X57 Mauser 175 grain load beat it by 80 FPS; and obviously had to be doing so at much higher peak pressures due to the smaller bore size.

The .303 British 180 grain load trounced it by a full 100 FPS!

For deer hunting the domestic 8X57 Mauser load is entirely adequate for the job, but it certainly isn't going to cause any excitement being ballistically put out to pasture. I would suggest that Remington load a new (+P if they must) version of the 8X57 in order to compliment the new rifle. Actually a couple of decent loads are called for. Something in the 200 grain moose mashing range and something around 150-165 grains for deer size game. At least that's my thoughts......AW

P.S.

Whatever loadings they choose should easily meet or exceed common .30/06 loads in any given weight range.AW

The 8x57 does everything an 06 can. I got a Kraut before I got an 06 and now that I have both...one is getting rebarreled ASAP. Guess which.

I was over on 24 Hour and there's a good thread on the 30-06 and something that occurs to me here is -- why the heck was there never a 308 cal built on the x57 case? We have the Roberts, the seven, the eight, and I think a 9.3, even 6 and 6.7x57 kitty kats; but never a 30 cal, or a 30 cal Ackley. Hmmm.  

I don't see anything about the 8x57mm that I can't do with a .30-06. That said, as a huge fan of the Remington Classic series of rifles, if one presents itself in the future at a reasonable price, I'd go for it. Although, I would prefer a Classic in 7x57mm, myself [as issued in 1981 - Hey Eagleye, maybe you're ready to sell yours? ].

Too many rifles... so little time!

Regards, Marcus.

Adobe

     Don't you hand load? One of the things I like best about this expensive gun hobby is getting the most from a cartridge. The 8x57, is a great cartrdge to load. Then you can thumb your nose at the factory stuff, tailor your loads to both your game, and the hunting conditions, and save a few bucks to boot.    Some cartriges are so downloaded by the factories that my hand loads are a huge improvment. best Example is the 4570, but the 257 roberts even in the +ploads factory are whimpy.My hand loads are not far behind the 25,06. I would not be at all suprised I I send you guys a post that says I have a load for my 24 inch 30,06 that pushes the new 168 grain barnes tripple shock out to 3000 and mabye better !.  Ain't done it yet but I think I can, That would be a great load for any thing in NA but a grizzly.

      Even if  The factories come out with a big improvment you can still do better with hand loads.

    ...tj3006

TJ,

Yes, I do handload. I once dabbled with the 8X57 for a friend in the late 80's. We never got a load truly fine tuned, but it was quickly obvious that the cartridge had some real potential in his sporterized Mauser.

As for being able to exceed factory levels safely and with accuracy; that's two of the three reasons handloading got so popular over the last 30 years. The other being the economy factor for folks that really did like to shoot more than the average hunter's box and a half a year. With today's powders it's fairly simple to improve on the "old" or original numbers on most if not all cartridges to some degree. Of course most factory ammunition was incrementally improved over the decades as powders with slower burns and lower pressure curves became available. The .30/06 is a perfect example of the powders making all the difference. The early .30/06 was only in the 2700 FPS range with 150 grain bullets; Light Magnum and High Energy loads beat those numbers by nearly 300 FPS. Even SAAMI "standard" loads are nearly 200 FPS better than the old .30/06 was in 1906.

You made specific mention of the .257 Roberts cartridge. A co-worker mentioned he had owned one at one time, having traded for it. He was unimpressed with it's performance, yet was a huge fan of the .25/06 that he replaced it with. If only he'd tried cartridges loaded to the Robert's full potential, he'd have probably been amazed as to how efficient the cartridge could have been. Again, we likely have powders today that he couldn't have purchased back then.

Loading to full safe potential, actually negates the need for the next larger step up in many cartridge classes, as long as you get the results you need for the job at hand. The only caveat would be somewhat diminished service life of the brass and or firearm over the long term. In a big game hunting rifle that may not be as much of an issue as in a varmint rifle.AW

Glad to hear you roll your own. !

     You probably know this all ready but another reason for the low factory loads in the 06 is that the origional  military rifle the 1903 springfield was chamberd for a short lived cartridge called the 30,03. (I have seen a few 1895 winchester levers in the same chambering) In 1906 the redsigned cartridge came out and the millitary, instead of rebarelling simply rechamberd the springfields already in inventory, and these rifles are deemed safe at a cup of I belive 48000 , so thats why factory loads are weak.(I read this along time ago so this is probably not 100% accurate but darn close) Well my 1999 built modle 70 classic will handle alot more than that.   As for the mauser there are several old versions of that cartrige too. I think the origional came about in 1888 (8x57 J). The modern version came into play about 1905 and is called the 8X57S). Data from my old hornady manual , gives 2900 fps with a 150 grain bullet, 2800 with a 170, and2300 with a 220 grain.  I,ll bet in a modern model 700 you can do better yet, mabye a lot better.      ...tj3006

Good history, Adobe.

Regarding load levels, my first centerfire was my grandfather's splinterweight GEW98 sporter conversion. After cleaning it good, it looked like a shooter, so I poached around and found some Norma 159s in a pawnshop in Green River, Utah. The old guy there even had some lead slugs, so he confirmed it was a 323 before selling me the ammo.

Well, I rigged the thing up in a tire with a string for the first shot. It didn't blow up.

Then I had to get it on paper, which was painful as hell. Did that. Inch and a quarter.

Cleaned it, hung it up. Two years later there was a special hunt for cow elk on this ranch, we had our tags, ate a big breakfast while looking at elk from the kitchen window.  So the sun comes up, we line up on the porch, and on call, fired.

Damn, if I didn't bleed near as bad as my cow, which dropped like a sack of spuds. Huge ring bite and a green shoulder.

That rifle is now a 22br varminter, and I still have the two boxes of Norma with 32 rounds left...I'm afraid to shoot them in my other Kraut.

The 8X57 is in deed a good cartridge. About the only way to improve it would be to make it a 9X57, but no one makes ammo for it anymore.

As long as we are on the history kick, the 8X57 was used with great effectiveness on elephants in Africa by one William Darylrimple Maitland Bell, aka; Karamojo Bell. He called his, the .318. I am not sure what kind of rifle he used, but his .318 took the bulk of his elephants. He attributed it to the light recoil compared to the true elephant guns of the day, and he was without peers in the marksmanship department, having invented and mastering the "quarter away brain shot" on jumbo. I read all three books about him, and there was NEVER a dull moment from cover to cover...................Kingpin

RockyDog,

I liked the .32 Whelen analogy. I'd guess that the 8mm-06 wildcat probably would be the .323 Whelen if we were really splitting hairs, since it used the longer '06 case. I tend to think that the .32 bore has "invisible" advantages over the .308. They exist in the lab, but you can't see them in the field. I'd bet that heavy bullet 8X57 or 8mm-06 loads probably do fall just below the .35 Whelen in on game effectiveness, and you'd have to be shooting game bigger than deer to even begin to see any difference if you ever did. The 8X57 certainly appears to be more than it's popularity would at first glance suggest. Probably a "specialists" cartridge these days. AW