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What is precision reloading? Fess Up!

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The_Mountaineer View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 September 2004 at 05:51

A while back there was some discussion about "reasonable" expectations from a factory rifle.  Perhaps, we can continue along this same line of thinking for reloading.

My question is this...

Just how "precise" do you think you can make your ammunition?  I'm not talking accuracy where you can shoot 5 bullets through the same hole but rather how repeatable you can make your ammunition.  Here's some examples:

Case trimming - I use a Lyman hand operated case trimmer, I find that I do very well to keep cases +/- 0.003 in uniform length.  Sometimes the amount of pressure I put against the crank of the trimmer determines how much brass it will cut.

Cartridge Over All Length - though I set my bullet seating die up and lock it, I notice I do very well to keep COAL within +/- 0.002 in length.  This part I'm pretty proud of.

Primers - I've switched to match primers but honestly don't know if there's a measurable difference.  I've weighed primers and don't see much difference within a lot so I don't segregate primers. 

Cases - I've noticed some difference here.  Winchester seems to be the least stretching/growing of the brass I've used, though Norma and A-Square are good too.  As far as brass weight, I don't worry about it as there's nothing I can do except segregate lots out and I don't feel that the effort is warranted for the 100 or so cases I buy at a time.

Bullets - I've measured bullets and found most to be of uniform length and weight within the same lot.  Is premium worth the price?  In my opinion, only if you're going after game harvesting features as consistency is pretty good across the board within the same lot of bullets.  Only rule here I've found is that you're paying for consistency and design features.

What about your measuring tools?  I use a digital caliper and have measured the exact same shell two or three times and found its length to vary by as much as +/- 0.003 in length simply by where on the caliper jaws I place the cartridge as well as how much pressure I apply!

More often, I admit that my reloading is less accurate (probably tack on another 0.001 or 0.002 in. to the above measurements). 

I've been reloading for some years now but my "serious/precision" reloading I've been doing probably for about 3-5 years now and this is what I've concluded that I can't do much better than what I've posted above.

Reason I bring this up is because it seems like there's more variability to components and technique standards than most reloaders are willing to give credit.

Anybody else wanna fess up?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2004 at 12:49

Hey what about how accurate you can weight powder!

  Huh! I't think that'd be at the top of the list.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gunrunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2004 at 13:22

I doubt I would fall into the "precision reloader" fold.  I never get 5 bullets in the same hole, let alone always have my homemade ammo turn out exactly the same.  Close enough for me, but surely not benchrest standards.

But I do try my best to make it consistent every time I load up.  I've found that the COAL will vary a few thousanths inch just using calipers.  When I use the Stoney Point bullet comparator to check the oal of the ogive it seems much more close.  I've checked many brands and types of rifle bullets for length consistency and have found some to be very close, and others to be very far apart.  Some of those have been lead tip, others have been plastic tip and some have been hollow point.  One thing I haven't done and would love to is to check the bullet runout.  I just can't see buying one of those measuring devices though.  Kind of expensive just to see if you didn't put the bullet in the case straight.

I've weighed some primers just out of curiosity, and each lot/brand weighed exactly the same.  I've been using Match primers for 308 recently, but don't know if they're worth it.  Soon I'll try some standard primers again and try to determine if there's a noticable difference.  (For me anyway)

I've been using the same plain jane calipers I bought at Midway back in '93, and they work great.  It doesn't seem to matter what part of the jaw I measure at.  It's always the same.  One thing I have noticed on brass measuring is this.  Measure the brass. Then turn the brass slightly and measure again, same spot on caliper.  Sometimes there is a high side on the case mouth.  Usually deburring and chamfering even it out for me. 

Trimming.  Bah!  I hate trimming.  Especially when doing a couple hundred rounds of 223.   I use the Lee trimmer set and my DeWalt drill.  Fast and easy, but you can't control the amount to be trimmed.  It's factory set on the length gauge.  It takes the case down to minimum specs, and I don't really like that.   Lately I've played around with trimming only the exessively long cases, and trimming just a bit to get them down to where the other cases are.  Getting pretty good at it.    One day I'll shell out the money for a good power trimmer.

And yes, I do like Winchester brass.  It's worked good for me. 

What about the scale you use to measure.  Is it always accurate?

How about your powder measure.  Do you throw consistent weights each and every time?

How about the dies.  Are they kept clean, so they size and seat the exact same each time?

You're right Mountaineer.  There's to many variables to keep track of.  But I love trying to make the best loads I can.  One hell of a lot of fun. 

 

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote macca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2004 at 19:24

Mountaineer, you have hit the biggest problem after the shooter on the head.

Benchrest can make you fanatical about uniformity.I buy brass in 500 lots with the same run number.I sort it by weight,trim and uniform it and sort it again by weight till I have around thirty to fifty top cases.

I buy all powder and projectiles and primers in large lots of the same run and sort accordingly.I have found that the runout on bullets leads to most flyers and work hard to cut down on this.

For competition I use a redding thrower and then weigh each charge with a labority scale.Unlike a lot of shooters I don't vary my load for different conditions at a comp I vary my aim instead.Does it work?Yeah, sometimes I win.

For hunting I'm a bit less fussy and would except Mountaineers reloads as excellent.

Macca

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The_Mountaineer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 02:00

You guys brought up some very good points.  Glad to know I'm not completely off my rocker in thinking that there's not a whole heck more I could do, easily and economically, to improve consistency in my loads.

I did forget to mention the powder scale.  The throwers I've used can vary a great deal but I always weigh each and every load anyhow.  I use a Pact electronic scale - not the best but not the worst either.  I find it to be amazingly consistent - so long as your reloading environment is good (no air current, no change in temp, etc.).  Precision seems real good.  I have noticed that you can vary the weight of the charge by simply how it lays in the powder pan.  If it's in a pile it will usually weigh more, so I always swirl it flat/level in the pan and weigh it each time.  Not a huge difference but somtimes I see 0.1-0.2 grains difference by doing this.  

Macca I appreciate your vote of confidence and glad to know that I'm not alone on this wondering issue. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dakotasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 02:39

i agree w/ macca that the run-out is the single biggest problem i have, too. in an effort to combat this, i take a run-out measurement on the neck of sized cases (no bullet). only cases that measure .002" or less are acceptable to me. after priming and stuffing, i'll take a run-out measurement on the bullet ogive. .003" or less and they are a go. it just depends on how stringent you want to be. more stringent = better accuracy, at the cost of an enormous rejection rate. for long range guns, you will necessarily have a high rejection rate. short range guns can get away w/ a ton of 'slop' and still shoot quite well.

powder... i've found that the powder charge can vary a bit and you can still get good-to-acceptable accuracy out to 300. beyond that and the powder charging gets more critical. witness br shooters... many don't even weigh their charges. i've also tested what a difference powder charge can be, and i am satisfied that at 300 yards and in, it isn't that big of a deal as long as the amount it varies is reasonable - say +/- .2 grains on the smaller cases, +/- .5 grains on the larger cases.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max-p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 04:14

mountaineer,

 There is much satisfaction to be enjoyed in the owning and operating of good measuring tools. Reloading is it's own hobby to some, with the validation of a job well done proven by the shooting.

Spending a lot of time weighing each powder charge and then dumping them into run of the mill cases of various neck thicknesses and tensions and seating bulets that vary in length from base to ogive on a press that aligns the die according to the slop in a 7/8x14 coarse thread, is a lot like washing the truck real good but not changing the oil regularly.

It makes a man feel like he's actually doing something important.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gunrunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 04:20

Macca and Dakotasin seem to agree that runout is the biggest culprit in bad groups, ie flyers.  Maybe I'd better cough up the dough and get one of those devices.   Is there one that works well for you guys.  I seem to remember RCBS made one. 

Dakota, if there's to much runout on the case neck do you turn the necks to get them even?  I'm not really sure how this works. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The_Mountaineer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 04:45

Good analogy Max,

There's more that could be done on my behalf but for all of my rifles save one, my 7 RUM Sendero, I'm looking at ranges well below 300 yards.  The $$$ invested in the tools you are hinting at aren't worth it for the vast majority of my battery.  As for my 7 RUM, well that is a work in progress.

Hmm, might have to get one of them neck turners and bullet/case runout thingies.

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Originally posted by Gunrunner Gunrunner wrote:

if there's to much runout on the case neck do you turn the necks to get them even?  

that's a huge subject, and like most other aspects of reloading, it 1) depends, and 2) builds on the other steps.

yes, you can turn the case necks, and most times it will bring them back in spec - sometimes it makes them worse. so, there's your short answer.

more in depth... if you turn the case necks, you will alter neck wall thickness, or, the amount of 'grip' on the bullet.

you will also alter the case's weight. not by much, and the neck thickness is the bigger issue, but the point is, this case is not like the others. uniformity breeds accuracy.

so, to be uniform, you will now have to neck turn all your cases, in addition to all the other prep work. generally speaking, i have had mixed results turning cases, and generally don't do it now. it is time consuming, and the end result probably will not make enough difference to get excited about, unless you have the appropriate tools and desire to alter the neck tension, and keep it consistent. also, a non-br neck turner can actually induce more run-out into the case.

basically, neck turning is really getting down to picking nits, and i feel that the time and effort is better spent shooting the rifle. i very rarely do it anymore - even for my 1000 yard gun.

reloading for my 1000 yard gun:
tumble the brass for an hour or two.
minimally size/deprime, and check the neck run-out. adjust the die until any neck run-out can be blamed on the brass, not improper die set-up. if you reject the bad brass now, it will cut down on a lot effort put into prepping brass that will never make the cut. if i need to full length size, i don't tighten the die down until it is in firm contact w/ the shellholder/ram. this helps cut down on some run out (because as max pointed out, the coarse threads are sloppy, and the ram may be introducing its own run-out). adjust the decapping pin as necessary to minimize run-out (i never crank the decapping pin down - i allow it to float a little).
trim the cases. in this step you are also hoping to square the mouth to the head, as well as make sure all cases measure the same.
deburr/chamfer... don't know how to describe my method for this... it is done by hand, and as such, done by feel.
uniform primer pockets, or at least clean them.
deburr flash holes.

now, all your brass is pretty close to the same. if you want to ensure they are as identical as possible, now is the time to weigh them. makes no sense to weigh them before you do all the trimming and deburring (sometimes you can get some rather large chunks of brass out of the flash hole).

tumble the brass again to make sure that all the lube is out of the necks, and to make 'em purty on the outside.

now, load your cases. when you're done, either measure the neck run-out at the ogive, or roll your cases along a mirror (hard to do this w/ a belted case). if you can see the bullets wobble, you have too much run-out. if you really can't see wobble, they are straight.

there are other things i've done before, or do now (measure bullets, weigh bullets - you'd be surprised how much bullet weights vary - etc etc and etc), depending on the gun and its expected use. but, you are getting into minute things that won't show up w/ a hunting rifle - at least not consistently. 

also, the more a case is fired, the less accurate it tends to be. so, there is a point of diminishing returns... when does loading go from a hobby to a job? how much time do you want to spend on brass prep? realize that solid fundamental reloading practices and load development will outperform factory ammo; factory ammo outperforms at least most shooters... so, where's the cut-off? individual's call...

that's enough for now... this post kinda got out of hand!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The_Mountaineer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 06:54

This is awesome stuff!  I'm certainly going to look into this some more - neck & bullet runout.

One thing I should've mentioned is that the "slack" that max was talking about with the threads of the press can be eliminated by using a washer or two.  By adjusting your sizing die down till it barely sizes the case (so it chambers easily) you can then back it off, slip a washer or two between the die and the shell holder, apply pressure to the cam to take up the slack then tighten down the nut.  This seems to work well and perhaps will assist with taking out some of that run-out that you guys keep mentioning.  Of course, I don't know cause I don't currently measure run out.  Saw it in one of my reloading manuals - maybe Sierra. 

I think dakotasin brought up a point that is really tantamount to this whole discussion...What is accurate enough?

Precision reloaded ammo is better than basic reloaded ammo.  Basic reloaded ammo is better than factory loaded ammo.  Factory loaded ammo is usually better than average shooter/hunter.

Perhaps there are some "get real" rules to live by out there.  Any suggestions?

I'm thinking of a few.

#1  If you're hunting/shooting under X yards (I'll arbitrarily say 300 yards) factory ammo and basic reloaded ammo is probably good enough.

#2  If you're hunting/shooting at long range (I'll arbitrarily say over 300 yards again), precision reloading may help but you really need to consider improvements/modifications to your rifle (e.g., custom barrel, blueprinted action, stock job, etc.)

#3  If you're honestly gonna do 1000 yard competition, then follow dakotasin's and macca's recipe  as the only shooting I've done at long range was with a 50 cal machine gun and mortar rounds and can't offer any further advice...LOL

PLEASE feel free to add to this or correct as I'm hoping this thread will become one of the BSB's "Archive Threads."  I've searched around on the site but haven't seen anything that really captures all that we're talking about here.

Maybe we can get some input from the 'smiths on this one or shooters who have custom/semi-custom rigs to chime in on this one.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max-p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 08:48

About that case neck concenricity,,,,,,,which is different from a bent case neck,,, which is different from a good case fired in a slightly out of round chamber, which is different from a good case pulled out of alignment by a dry expander ball,,, altho all will show run out,,,

A resizing die that squeezes a neck of unknown wall thickness down to some unknown I.D., and then enlarges it as the expander ball is forced back up thru it, even tho the decapping stem is not aligned perfectly within the die, or press, or center line of the case, which depends upon shell holder and rim O.D., is even so plenty close enough for most folks. But for those with plenty of time on their slightly palsied hands here's another way to get minimum run out:

Start with a piece of new brass. Uniform the I.D. with a mandrell of appropriate diameter. (Sinclair catalog). Trim to length and chamfer. Now the I.D is good and fits just right over a mandrel in the case neck turning tool. (Sinclair catalog). Slightly turn the neck to a uniform thickness all the way around, or to fit your new shiney chamber with the tighter than normal neck. Now select the appropriate neck sizing bushing for your expensive bushing type sizer die, that produces an I.D. of about .002 smaller than bullet diameter. A man can buy these bushings in .001 increments and get it just right. Now the bullets seats smoothly in your expensive seater die with the sliding chamber that aligns the bullet before it gets any where near that nice straight case neck. The results are usually run out from zero to .001 or .0015.

Next step is to go to the range full of expectations about tiny little groups where a guy driving a Volkswagon van will out shoot you using his 788 and old Hornady factory ammo found rolling around on the floor of the vehicle.

By the way, a custom chamber set up by a good 'smith will usually produce nice straight fired brass that a man messes up by reloading it.

Who knows?????????? At least it keeps some of us away from day time tv.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 13:02

Sounds like a walk on the dark side.

   Just don't buy any remington Brass, and becareful when you reload.  check your brass and toss things that are way far away from the norm. 

   Unless you've got a tight chamber, tight neck you really don't know.

On the other hand you could buy a savage or Tikka and get good groups from the start.

Spot

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dakotasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 13:09
or you could buy anything else and get into real precision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gunrunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 13:43

So Savage and Tikkas are the same. I didn't know that.  I don't own either, so no wonder my groups have been garbage lately. 

There are so many variables in reloading, sighting, and shooting.  Unless we have some of the gear that the bullet companies use we may never know how good our homemade ammo is. Things like a wind free shooting tunnel.  A rifle or pistol Ransom rest. 

But it's so much fun to shoot ammunition that I made myself, as compared to buying a box at the store.  Even if I never make stuff that will shoot one hole groups I'll always load my own.  'Cause when it works, it feels so dang good.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 14:38

Well look at it this way,

    All systems have stable area's and unstable area.  The best (and I mean best) designs enable large amounts of variance with small variations in the output.  So is it with well designed rifles.

    i.e.  Good guns designs aren't super sensitive to minor changes in ammo.  Or if that don't make sense... it's easy to find ammo that will group well in it.

    Given that why can most Tikka's and Savages group under an inch and Remy's don't....  The design is old... sucks or whatever.....

wake up and smell the coffee, the reason Remingtons are popular is that any smith with the bare bones basic tools can work on them.  It isn't because it's the "best design".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 14:40

For you remmy nuts.

  Remington had a good design in the 788...  I guess it was too cheap looking to be considered a good design.

Even if it was the best shooting Remy ever made.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dakotasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 16:40
Originally posted by Spot shooter Spot shooter wrote:

    Given that why can most Tikka's and Savages group under an inch and Remy's don't.... 

bullshit.

that is purely subjective, and you know it. i've never had trouble getting remingtons to go under an inch... i've posted enough groups w/ a lot of different rifles that you should know that - and most of those rifles are remingtons... model 7's, 700 bdl's, 700 adl's, a 721, and 700 vls's. i've also posted groups of other makers - tang safety ruger, a couple savages, and a couple winchesters. i worked w/ all those rifles, and got them all to shoot to my satisfaction. to say that all tikkas and all savages will group under an inch, and no remingtons will is pure folly; even the most ardent supporters of savage and tikka would have to admit that your sizeable sample of 1 doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. you are way off here, spot, and you know it. guess its my fault for taking the bait, but lets not fill the forum full of horseshit and think it will fly.

this has drifted entirely off topic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spot shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 17:22
Originally posted by dakotasin
<P><strong>bullshit.</strong> </P>
<P>that is purely subjective, and you know it. </P>
<P>[/QUOTE dakotasin

bullshit.

that is purely subjective, and you know it.

[/QUOTE wrote:

  I beleive that there is an over all concensus in the shooting public that Tikka's (hunter

  I beleive that there is an over all concensus in the shooting public that Tikka's (hunter gun's not VLS types) are more accurate on average then there Remy counter part. 

   now if you can listen and not get too much energy involved in your answer.

   MY point is simple... maybe we're "diggin" in the wrong place.  Instead of fixing the accuracy bug with a load why not put that amount of work to start with a more accurate off the shelf plain jane gun and put in less work in finding "good" loads. 

    Maybe it's too simple to be common sense.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dakotasin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 September 2004 at 18:59

no...there is nothing wrong w/ the rifles. generally speaking, few shooters can shoot up to the rifle's potential.

how do you fix a rifle w/ a load? if the rifle was garbage, it wouldn't shoot even the best of handloads worth a damn. because the rifle is not, then it will shoot the best of handloads better. the rifle is not the fault.

you want a match barrel? chamber? tight neck? faster lock times? lighter triggers? better stocks? yeah, you can have all that. oh, you want it for off the shelf price of $399? c'mon... the rifles cannot get any better and remain affordable to commoners. that is why the custom/semi-custom route is the way to go for the more demanding shooter. besides, why put all the effort in rack-grade rifles, when the rifles being produced now aren't being shot to their potential.

so, the answer is the load. not as an accuracy fix, but to complement the existing rifle's accuracy potential.

as far as the 'consensus' goes... i doubt that. maybe there is, maybe not. guess i don't care a whole lot... my rifles, regardless of brand, shoot to my satisfaction.

why not put all that effort into a plain-jane gun? cost. necessity.

Hunting is not a matter of life or death; it is much more important than that.
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