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Topic Closedreloading question - heavy to light?

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TasunkaWitko View Drop Down
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aka The Gipper

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: reloading question - heavy to light?
    Posted: 09 September 2003 at 17:24

through some pretty bodacious load development, it has been determined that this load has potential for my .308>>>>

 

not bad for an old mauser, in my opinion, and this is a starting point, not the fully developed load.

the only problem i see with it is the 180-grain bullet, which seems awfully heavy for any hunting i am likely to do most often.

one load which came close to this accuracy was a factory winchester BST load>>>

 

these show pretty good accuracy, especially with the first 2 or 3 shots, which are very critical when hunting.problem with this load is that it is a ballistic tip, which i am still leery about (sorry, klallen!) and that it is a factory load. the weight. however is pretty good. 150 grains, which i would consider to be about right, especially at .308 velocities. 165 might be better, though.......

given this info, would any of you more-experienced loaders have any idea of where to go from here? what i would like to do is bring the weight down to 165 (ideal) or 150 (acceptable), but keep the accuracy shown by the 180's. maybe even improve on it~~~

or is it simply back to the drawing board?

TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2003 at 19:51
Hey Ron  >>  Get yourself a box of the 165 gr. BT's, load them up to 2800 fps and work on eliminating that BT leariness you've got    .  I've been as low as the 120 gr. BT in the .264WinMag and that bullet took some decent animals last year, one at 70 yds., with little fuss.  I'd imagine at the impact velocities of the .308 and with the added weight, expansion and penetration would be equally predictible and relyable.  I've heard you mention a couple times about mostly experiencing closer range shots.  These will be a great testing ground while you're gaining confidence in the bullet.  At these ranges, heart / lung shots should be easy.  BT's excel at shreading lung.  I dare say, if you gave them a chance, you'd gain confidence in them real quick on antelope and deer sized game.  Besides that, I've never had a BT that didn't prove extremely accurate in all my big game rifles.  Good luck to ya in your development, whichever bullet you choose.  Chat with you later.  >>  klallen
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2003 at 23:49

Originally posted by klallen klallen wrote:

...if you gave (bt's) a chance, you'd gain confidence...

...or tracking ability!

seriously ron... if you own a 308, you are doing yourself a real disservice by not at least testing varget out. rl-15 should also be tested, but at the very least, try varget.

my most accurate load runs 47.5 grains of varget. this is over book max, but since i seat my bullets to the lands, pressure is fine on it. you should find something good in 2 range sessions... perhaps even the first one.

both of my 308's i noticed a trend... at the light charges they shot well, then opened up w/ heavier charges until i reached book max, which didn't shoot all that well. but, as i worked above book max, the rifles started to shoot tighter. and tighter, and tighter w/ each subsequent load until i stopped at 47.5 grains... the accuracy was definitely there (sub .5 moa to 300 yards in 2 different 308's), and maybe there was more, but i was getting nervous about working beyond max.

if you want to stick w/ the 4350, i would take my most accurate charge w/ the 180's, and use that as my starting charge w/ the 165's, and work up. you gotta go back to the drawing board, but not blindly so - you should learn something from each stage of development... the rifle is talking - are you listening?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 02:40

Morning DAKOTASIN  >>  I think the idea that the need for tracking increases with the use of BT's or BST's is a interesting myth, of sorts. To me, I mean.  Not to those having problems with the bullet.  I've heard lots complain, but I've never experienced any of the problems.  I don't know what to think about these accounts of others.  I don't know if it's more an issue of the correctness of their use or what.?.?.?.?.?  I just don't know.

Over the last 8 years, gone to the Bt and BST exclusively in deer and antelope.  I've not tracked anything farther than 50 yds. from where it's been hit.  Actually, that was no tracking job.  I simply watched from my vantage point as the hit deer run the 50 yds. across my field of view, as the lung shot took hold.  Last year, the deer I got with that 70 yd. shot went 20 yds. after being hit.  That's kind of the MO for these bullets.  At least, my experience with them.  There's been lots of "pop and drop" stuff in between, as well.    This is with an assorted weight of BT and BST in .257 up through the .308 caliber classes.  If the myth be true, I've somehow tripped across a different way of using them then most, cause they sure seem to be an extremely simple bullet to make function on game extremely well.  Close range stuff with hits on large shoulder bone seems to be a major issue.  And it would be.  I don't condone such a shot with these bullets at that range, yet don't completely understood the problem.  You'd think at closer ranges, a heart / lung hit (missing all "on side" heavy bone of the shoulder) would be of little difficulty.  And in the end I'd agree, if folks are shooting at close ranges exclusively, they don't need the ballistic advantages of a BT, so they're use would be unneeded.  Kind of why it was a "tongue in cheek" suggestion to Ron.  I think he'd like them if he gave them a chance and used them correctly.  My opinion, of course.  On the rare occasion when I do get the opportunity to hit something under 100 yds., they've done a hell of a job for me.  As I said, I don't know.  One of those strange end result things that different folks get in the field on the same size of game.  Unexplainable, I suppose.

As I mentioned to Ron, another apealing thing to me is the fact that across the board, they've been an easy bullet to make shoot well in everything I've got.  That, and the on game performance is why they're where all by load development starts and ends with newly acquired big game (antelope and deer) rifles.  I don't mind folks not using them and bad mouth'n them, but I like'em.  They're "the" bullet for deer and antelope, as far as I'm concerned.   Chat with ya later.  >>  klallen

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 02:46

     Ron My experience wioth the 308 is that Varget and RL-15 are the powders to use. As far as boat tail bullets are concerned I think with the .308 you have little to wory about. If you were shooting a magnum and shot a buck at close range I might have some concern.  I took a Buck at 30 yards with a 165 grain sierra BT and it did a great job on him.  I am loading a 160 grain accubond in my 7mmSTW and pushing it to 3250 fps. (it is a boat tail) I Prefer 150s and 165s in my .308s for the area I hunt cause shots could be long or short. I might sugjest screwing around with different primers abit to. I seem to like the bench rest primers from CCI and the Gold medal primers from Federal.

        ...tj3006

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 06:43

whoah, klallen... my post about the 'tracking' was a joke, a barb at you given our sparring over these things in the past. didn't mean for it to be anything more than that, but thought you'd recall our past conversations and see it as a bit of comedy. nothing more.

i absolutely understand your argument for ballistic tips. i expect you'll understand my argument against them. the performance you seem to be getting is similiar to the performance i get from hornady interlocks - which you openly dislike (the bullets, not the performance i get). now... since my experience w/ interlocks is so good, and yours is so bad, who's right? who's right about the bt's? i'll use what has worked for me - you'll use what has worked for you, and i'll wager we both get a critter or (let's see... i have... 6 big game tags, so...) 6 down by dec.

so, here is where i step out of the ballistic tip arena: i'll not put another down the tube of any rifle (even varmint guns because of the v-max), until sierra and hornady give me cause to switch (whether that be pricing, performance, whatever).

now...back to tas's 308... 165's, win brass (fireformed, neck-sized, and trimmed), federal lr primer, stiff dose of varget = sub moa to 300 in 2 very different 308's (1 22" barrelled sporter, 1 26" barrelled varminter).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 07:53
Maybe those groups represents the nut behind the trigger
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 07:58

I dont see any problem using the 180 grain bullet on whitetails, lopes, mulies, whatever. Especially at the ranges that you shoot, Tas. Also, even if it does drop more than a 150 grainer, it isnt effected as much by wind resistance. It is also a little bit extra "reasurance." I am going to try some 180's seeing as we have some, and i feel more comfortable using 180's on elk rather than 150's. But then again, my dad DROPPED his first elk with a Ruger m77 in .270 with Winchester factory loaded with 130 grain Silvertips. I dont hear him complaining

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 08:16

"whoah, klallen... my post about the 'tracking' was a joke, a barb at you given our sparring over these things in the past. didn't mean for it to be anything more than that, but thought you'd recall our past conversations and see it as a bit of comedy. nothing more"

Gotcha, DAKOTASIN.

About bullet selection, I tell ya, what I saw with those 162 gr. BTSP's from Hornady still have me baffled.  Hell, I had the Hornady techs baffled when I reported what I had seen over a span of two hunting seasons on 5 different deer.  Things that can't be explained scare me a bit.  That's where I'm at with the Interlock system.  No confidence.  And it's not even about on game performance.  It was more about being able to handle the stress that the STW and barrel twist were putting on the bullet.  This is what I believe was compromising things.  And this is a major downfall, when you consider the .264 WinMag, 7mm RUM and 7.82 Warbird would all be pushing their appropriate Hornady Interlock bullet faster then what the STW was mustering.  I suppose if I were to ever give the Interlocks another go, this new .270 would have been a wonderful testing ground for me.  Take the 140 gr. BTSP and load it up to 3000 fps and I very well could have seen more pleasing results.  I'd imagine 3000 fps shouldn't compromise things.?.?.?.?  As it were and with as long as the BT's have been working, I'd have to agree with your sentiment that I'll continue with them till something unexplainable happens, like did with the Interlocks.

Here's hoping we both have a whale of a season with whatever bullet we choose.  >>  klallen

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 11:04
I have held for many years that the 180 gr. size bullet is optimum for the .30 bore size. Trajectory is good to sensible hunting range, little meat damage in deer and antelope, and good medicine for elk.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 11:10
rob - in this one case, i think the "nut" behind the trigger knew what he was doing!
TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2003 at 14:15

a lot of good replies so far! given me quite a bit to think about. keep em coming!

TasunkaWitko - Chinook, Montana

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