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CCW solid or Hollow point?

Printed From: The BaitShop
Category: FireArms, et cetera
Forum Name: Handguns, Pistols and SixGuns
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URL: http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=25735
Printed Date: 21 November 2018 at 07:56
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Topic: CCW solid or Hollow point?
Posted By: BEAR
Subject: CCW solid or Hollow point?
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:01
My CCW are either: 32, 380, 9mm, or 38.

I usually carry FMJ bullets in all but the 38, preferring full shoot thru for bad guys.  The 38 usually carries HC 158 lead wadcutters.

Now there are so many new hollow point defense bullets in the small cartridges. 

 should U change to the lighter hollow points?   

will they fully penetrate? 

 what about winter time when folks wear heavy coats?

Thoughts.





Replies:
Posted By: d4570
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:17
If you line two of the bad guys up you can save ammo !!!!Shocked

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Remember: Four boxes keep us free ,the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, AND the cartridge box


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 11:34
Funny thing I read some thing lately that said you don't need to worry about danger from pass thru bullets.  I seriously doubt Governor Connolly would agree with that!!!! 


Posted By: MtElkHunter
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 12:57
I have seen a lot of FMJ used. Not on people but animals and I have serious reservations about their killing/stopping ability. The main reason the 45 acp was developed was the lack of stopping power of smaller calibur FMJ handguns. If I am going to use a smaller calibur (I normally carry a 45) I want the best P+ HP I can buy. I am even happier with P+ HP in a 45.


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SW Montana


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 13 October 2017 at 20:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=jnFwr2ycgXk" rel="nofollow - defensive bullet
I've been using these, best of either type? https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/products/9mm-luger-p-90gr-xtreme-defense-ammunition?variant=4431999236" rel="nofollow - ammo

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 14 October 2017 at 08:18
Robert, the Lehigh looks good.  But they even have a difficult time; making a max penetration round and a max expansion round.

since you use them, do they feed good with all that point fluting?


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 14 October 2017 at 10:21
I've shot 9mm in Beretta 92 and Taurus PT111 and 709 slim, they feed as well or better than XTPs. I've shot 45 auto in Taurus 24/7, 1911, and Springfield XDs, they feed same as XTP in 24/7 and 1911 and better in XDs, which is more temperamental with HPs.

The 125gr 9mm hits hard and 120gr 45 auto loaded to +P smacks 50yd plates hard. I haven't shot anything with either yet, but will test on doe, if I find test subject, around house.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 01:25
I like and carry FEDERAL Hydra-Shock +P/HP ammo in various calibers in both semi-autos and revolvers. It is an old design but I am an old design too but I think we both can do the job yet. The only living flesh I have shot with one of them in .40 S&W (180 gr) was a porcupine that was chewing on my log cabin outer wall. It died! One well (lucky) placed round did him in. 

To address the ? Bear posed....should one change from FMJ in smaller calibers to new HP wonder bullets/ammo....I'd say yes. The idea is to inflict a lot of damage fast to neutralize the threat quickly. Properly designed and well placed bullets do just that. Ball ammo aka FMJ mostly don't do that unless the central nervous system is hit....or pelvic area. Most of us would likely be shooting for center mass first. 

Now some of the newer bullets claim to be designed to penetrate heavy clothing& still do their job.....so they advertise. My guess is not many of the HP bullets will make it out of a center mass body hit...just a guess mind you I have no scientific knowledge to back that up.

Also, there are some bullets/ammo specifically designed to perform from very short bbls on many calibers. If you have a really short bbl on your gun then it may be worth looking into.

Now this is like asking what's the best  _______ you fill in the blank, of any subject you can name and you will get as many answers as there are those questioned. Some "stuff" may be better then others certainly but that could be subjective too. 


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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 06:00
IBD, I'm a hunter and have probably killed 200+ large mammals.  So my thoughts are to sure kills.

This might be overshadowing  issues in shooting at bad guys.  As you point our  CCW are for " idea is to inflict a lot of damage fast to neutralize the threat quickly. "

The heart and lungs lie just within 3" of our chest, so maybe deep penetration isn't necessary.  The US government is certainly stupid and screwed up; so maybe the FBI penetration standards are just road apples.

Guess I'll use ultra hollow points or the Lehigh bullets.




Posted By: Go-ddaed
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 06:38
The delineation falls between .380 and 9mm. The .380 requires all its energy for penetration. The 9mm has enough extra energy to expand and and penetrate.

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Palindrome wannabe


Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 08:36
Interesting Go-dd.

A good friend gave me a box of hollow points for my new auto 380...what does that mean.  think he wants me effectively dis-armed with those wimpy hollow points?


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 09:15
The 9mm was considered by many for many years a bit "light weight" or not totally adequate for Self Defense but NEW Bullet designs in recent times have propelled it into a much more confident round status. 
Same can be said for the .380 with new bullet constructions designed for better expansion/penetration than older FMJ rounds plus ammo designed for use in shorter bbls.

Here is one opinion of Lehigh bullets for pistols......right or wrong?????...I sure don't know...You decide!
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/10/lehigh-a-gimmick/" rel="nofollow - http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/10/lehigh-a-gimmick/

pictures of some of their bullets for pistols
https://www.lehighdefense.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.lehighdefense.com/

Some info on Liberty ammo....product reviews from a Midway ad....
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001575929/liberty-civil-defense-ammunition-9mm-luger-p-50-grain-fragmenting-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20" rel="nofollow - https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001575929/liberty-civil-defense-ammunition-9mm-luger-p-50-grain-fragmenting-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20


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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: Go-ddaed
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 09:37
Bear- with friends like that...

Perhaps he was misguided and thought he was giving you Hornady Critical Defense, a round that is less likely to plug up than a hollow point?

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Palindrome wannabe


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 10:24
The video link, shows firearm blog reviewer, walking back, his earlier review, after actually shooting the Lehigh bullet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=180&v=AYLNbCP5uiM" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=180&v=AYLNbCP5uiM
Note his video compared bullet facing forward and one reversed, basically a cupped solid wadcutter, not a RN FMJ or conventional HP bullet.

He doesn't come out endorsing them, but admits, they may make difference.

Whether a 90gr HP bullet in 380 @ 1,000 fps or a 65gr bullet @ 1,150 fps, is better for defense, I'm not sure. It does seem, a solid bullet, would have better penetration, unless HP plugged and worked as FMJ.


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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: BEAR
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 11:47
thanks for the sites.  looked at them all.  Now more confused than ever!!!


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 17:02
Originally posted by BEAR BEAR wrote:

thanks for the sites. looked at them all. Now more confused than ever!!!


The way I look at it, worse argument against HP, (as long as it feeds, in your pistol), is "HP plugs with clothes and fails to expand" So in the worse case HP, acts like FMJ? You can choose to shoot HP bullet, that may fail to expand and act like FMJ or you can shoot FMJ, that you know can't expand. Seems to be little downside to HP, (as long as it feeds), worse case, you end up with HP acting like FMJ.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   



Posted By: Wing master
Date Posted: 17 October 2017 at 21:16
I really don't know for sure but I have always thought that cops used hollow points. 

I assume that some kind of research went into their decision to use them. 

I use Hollow points in my 9mm and Hornady Critical Defence loads in my .38 Special. 

Either way, I don't think too many bad guys are going to come back wanting another round of hollow point or fmj to their center mass. 

Wing master


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I have always considered myself to be quite the bullshitter, But ocasionally it is nice to sit back and listen to a true professional......So, Carry on.


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 18 October 2017 at 02:43
The local LEOs around here use HP ammo in handguns, both the counties and small towns....we are very rural up here. 

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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: MtElkHunter
Date Posted: 18 October 2017 at 14:18
The best discussion I have ever heard on this debate was a number of years ago. I read an interview with a long time career criminal. I don't remember the exact numbers but he had been shot around numerous times in his life with about 25 hits. He had been shot with 380, 9mm and 45. He had been hit in just about every part of his body except his head and neck (both legs, arms, chest, abdomen etc). By far the majority of the hits were from 9mm and 380. One shooting he got hit 8 times with a 9mm. He had absolute contempt for the 9mm and 380 but really respected the 45.  He said he was not afraid of the 380 or 9mm but the closest he came to dying was from 1 shot with a 45. The time he got shot 8 times with a 9mm he still walked into the hospital under his own power.

What type of ammo was never talked about but being gang related you can probably assume that they did not use the best ammo. What conclusions you can get from this I don't know but I figured anyone who has been on the receiving end of that many bullets from various guns at least is worth listening to.


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SW Montana


Posted By: Irish Bird Dog
Date Posted: 18 October 2017 at 15:10
Originally posted by MtElkHunter MtElkHunter wrote:

The best discussion I have ever heard on this debate was a number of years ago. I read an interview with a long time career criminal. I don't remember the exact numbers but he had been shot around numerous times in his life with about 25 hits. He had been shot with 380, 9mm and 45. He had been hit in just about every part of his body except his head and neck (both legs, arms, chest, abdomen etc). By far the majority of the hits were from 9mm and 380. One shooting he got hit 8 times with a 9mm. He had absolute contempt for the 9mm and 380 but really respected the 45.  He said he was not afraid of the 380 or 9mm but the closest he came to dying was from 1 shot with a 45. The time he got shot 8 times with a 9mm he still walked into the hospital under his own power.

What type of ammo was never talked about but being gang related you can probably assume that they did not use the best ammo. What conclusions you can get from this I don't know but I figured anyone who has been on the receiving end of that many bullets from various guns at least is worth listening to.

If it happened a 'number of years ago" I'd bet the ammo was hardball aka FMJ and that's why he survived all those hits. I believe today's 9mm & .380 self-defense specialty ammo would have put him down.
I've never been shot but I still REspect the 9mm or 380. 


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Irish Bird Dog

NRA Life/Endowment

2nd Amendment Supporter


Posted By: MtElkHunter
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 11:52

IBD

I would agree with that. I suspect the ammo was all FMJ stuff and that modern hi-performance HP ammo would have made a lot of difference. That being said it is still interesting comparing 9mm FMJ to 45 FMJ or 9mm HP to 45 HP, the stopping power is relative. A 9MM HP may perform as good as a FMJ 45 but a 45 HP works even better.

The morbid side of me has spent way more time than I should have reading and studying after action reports, witness accounts and talking to people who have firsthand knowledge of shootings.  I am very interested in terminal performance of bullets handgun and rifle. The one thing I can say after all my investigation is nothing is certain, there is and will be an exception to every idea and theory that we come up with.  If you really think about it we should have expected that because when you are dealing with terminal performance and the results there of there are hundreds of variables that can affect the outcome.

Another interesting interview I saw was from an EMT in one of the big cities (I think LA). He was an EMT for years and saw a lot of GSW come in. He said that the deadliest handgun round was the 22. Everyone thought he was crazy until he explained why. He said that most people who were shot in the chest with a 22 did not take GSW seriously. There was very little pain and very little bleeding so they almost never sought medical help right away. The 22 caused serious internal damage but the person did not realize it. By the time they realized that they had a problem it was too late. If they would have sought help right away they probably would have survived. With bigger rounds they usually went right to the ER and had a higher survival rate. Kind of interesting in the human thought process of GWSs.



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SW Montana


Posted By: Go-ddaed
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 12:19
I used to work with a guy that flew Huey's in Vietnam. He always claimed to have been shot eight times. The thing was it was with only one bullet. In through the bottom of the chopper, through the bottom of his boot, bottom of his foot out the side of his ankle, in and out his calf, in and out his thigh, in and out his shoulder, then lodged in the back of his seat. He said his crew chief recovered the bullet and gave it to him. I never saw the bullet but I saw the scars on his legs and they were huge zipper stitched with chunks the size of golf balls missing. 7.62x39 fmj.

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Palindrome wannabe


Posted By: RobertMT
Date Posted: 19 October 2017 at 16:18
One of my dad's neighbors, is a anesthesiologist, he did his internship in New Orleans in 70s. He also had said more die from 22, than bigger rounds, for the same reason, either don't know they've been shot (too high to notice) or they wait too long to come in.

He said most bad guys shot by cops made it, they were brought in right away. City police of the time, were armed with 38sp with 158gr LRN and few later with 9mm with 147gr FMJ.

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NRA Benefactor Life, GOA Patriot, SAF   




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